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    Thread: Scientific Evidence in the Quran

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      Scientific Evidence in the Quran

      We all hear this a lot. "There are scientific facts and predictions in the Quran that Muhammed could not have known at the time".
      The thing is, they all seem vague and more so like wishful thinking more than straight forward facts. It's like trying to play doors and rooms, where the answers to solve the puzzle are indirect and vague, but the thing is, in real life, there is no red light telling you if your interpretation is true, and seems not cuz it's very much just wishful thinking and bending facts.

      Some of these points are:
      _The Quran speaking about Fetus development:

      >Muslims say the Quran specifies accurately how the fetus forms. Actually, lots of what it says is either very vague (for example it describing 4 stages each with a word) and takes quite the stretch to fit as a scientific fact. You must be familiar with how far they are streched. If not, one of these stages is mudgha, which means a bitesize piece of flesh. Muslims say that a certain point the fetus's spinal cord shows up and looks like bite mark, so vwala! Scientific miracle. Also, these descriptions, although most muslims don't like googling things to make sure of a crucial piece of info, already existed within the ancient greek science. Finally, half of the descriptions of this process in the Quran (and ancient greek embryology) are very far from the truth. For example, Bones don't form first then wait for the flesh to cover them (forming on top of the bone). They form simultaneously. Although this info is very easily accesible to everyone through one google search, muslims i talk too (and most others) prefer to say things like "no bones form then meat after them, not simultaneously". I just tell them to do a simple google search, then the typical BS comenses like "the website you enterred to read this is anti-islam and lying" or "I saw my baby on echo, so don't teach me about embryology".

      _The Quran saying "I swear by the stars and their places" or "the earth and heavens were together than split apart". They say this is supposed to talk about expansion and the big bang.

      The weird thing is, this is a very big stretch of an interpretation of a sentence like these. Looks more like playing a crazy puzzle game than actual objective interpretation. These are also ad hoc bcz it's funny how they completely forget that big bang and expansion, or even basic earth science, almost completely contradicts the description of the universe's formation and evolution in the Quran. Accepting Big bang and expansion would cantradict other parts of the Quran, unless of course, the muslim wants to be even more creative and fit "created earth and put rivers on it and grape trees and then placed humans on it ..." into the science of universe, earth, and life evolution and formation, which would prove quite impossible.


      These are just some, and please note that I'm not literally quoting here.

      So, what do you guys think? How can ppl be so self deceiving and convince themselves that these things are completely compatible, and even clearly miraculous, without acknowledging any doubt? I mean, I understand how cuz i was a muslim, and what i used to do was believe in "proofs" and make excuses. Especially when hearing an 'evidence', I would stop there and not work on getting more info, which in most cases showes that what you knew as proof has holes in it you didn't know. This is a kind of fallacy.
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      Modern times are very hard on any religious zealot.They have been brain washed on facts that can not hold up under the ability to find information on line. So, simply they choose to believe in a grand plot of Satan's in which the whole world lies about things out of hate for their 'truth.'
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      @ Sivason It's just funny when you think about it how many crazy unproved things organized religion members believe in. I get hillarious when I argue with one and tells me that whatever i'm saying is crazy illogical unproven things indoctrinated to me by anti-christ or anti-muslim and I believe in them bcz i want to guide my heart and soul away from god. It reaches levels of self dilusion to the point where even every muslim once in the room i was debating with agreed unanimously that islam has no definition or functions to the soul after i told them about how most of the phsychological charecteristics have been shown to exist inside the brain and not the general idea of the soul being the spot of one's memories and self awareness and emotions and thoughts and so on. As if the definition of the soul is anything you like as long as the quran didn't come with it's own dictionary
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      People who say there is scientific evidence for the quran are nuts, just like the people who say there is scientific evidence for the bible. I am pretty sure they just really want to believe in the book so are willing to accept anything. Kind of like people who believe in silly conspiracy theories and stuff as well.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      People who say there is scientific evidence for the quran are nuts, just like the people who say there is scientific evidence for the bible. I am pretty sure they just really want to believe in the book so are willing to accept anything. Kind of like people who believe in silly conspiracy theories and stuff as well.
      You know it's funny too when they say that "it's been discovered recently by science what Islam has known for 1400 years". Like, did you lose your mind? If it's been known for 1400 years, then why was it just proposed now by scientists?Heck, even some scientific stuff verified today have been speculated, at least partially accurately, by ancient societies like ancient Greece and the Egyptians,so some mere vague verses, even if vaguely related to modern scientific facts, is not at all impressive, and keep in mind that those ancient societies had it even less vague and more spot on than the Quran or Bible.
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      Hi all I don't know why people to make conversation start by criticizing everything ,I respect all religions and I wish that every person should make sure that he knows what he's talking about when he approach the subject of religion
      First of all in my simple point of view we should ask ourselves if God exist or not ,if it's a yes why and if it's a no why,
      If there is no God we would be living like animals ,the Quran the Bible ...are guiding us through life showing the right path and how to behave with each other ,be kind ......on the other hand not believing in God means no bible no Quran ...it's like living in a jungle no taboos no rules no respect for ur parents ur neighbor ....because u don't believe in nothing ,I love my religion Islam I read it everyday and I'm proud to say that it made me a better person and I have Christian and Jewish friends and we talk about religion and nobody gets upset because we are not fanatic and I'm sorry to tell u Louai it's very difficult to try and translate the Quran and say u understand it's meaning leave it for the scholars .thanks .

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      My point of view right now, in the time when these books where writtesn that is the exact knowledge-base that they could conceptually realize. Prophets like Jesus or Muhammet could only conceptually grasp concepts that are known to them in their time.
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      I don't know the Quran as well as I know the bible, though I know they are similar in a lot of ways. The stuff people claim as scientific is usually random and vague passages. For example, there is a passage in the bible that says something along the lines that God sits upon the circle of the earth. Then they claim it says earth is a circle, which is wrong(since earth is a 3rd dimensional sphere, not a 2 dimensional circle) but then they say Hebrew doesn't have a word for sphere so it must mean sphere, and then that is evidence they knew the earth was a sphere. Which they should have known given the time period, but then the bible says multiple other things suggesting that the person writing the bible did not in fact know the earth was a sphere.

      You will never see an accurate and clear statement such as, "The earth is a sphere." You always get really vague statements that can be read and interrupted any way you wanted and when it is clear the statements are usually totally incorrect. Like I know the quran says that salt and fresh water never mix, which is scientifically inaccurate. However, the point in that statement isn't really meant to describe a scientific topic, but is more to explain how some times you have rivers that run into the sea and the water doesn't like instantly mix right?

      The two books are trying to explain daily things that come up in your life, and talks about stuff people don't really know about and they try to go off what little knowledge they have. So they explain a lot of stuff, and culturally the explanations they give might make a lot of sense, so that is where their focus is on. If you read them from that perspective, they make way more sense. They are most definitely not written to be scientific though, and make absolutely not sense from scientific point of view.
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      Hi all,remember lost in translation ,that is exactly the tragedie I for myself I will never accept that somebody professors scholars priests sheikh trying to impose their point of view or their translation of the holly books as accurate ,because it is their own understanding of the scripture ,how can I trust them and there are so many so many that contradict each other,I would prefer to stick with the originals holly books,remember Originals are always best,and specially now politics are interfering with our beliefs so no confusion please . I love science and I really love scientists that have integrity now everything is a mess because they working for the politicians and not for the interest of human kind ,God said in the Quran that he's afraid or he worries about scientists because he knew what they will do with their knowledge ,destroying human values and in the process destroying human lives in every respect of the word ,I hope I didn't get lost in translation .see you guys !

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      Quote Originally Posted by Amedee View Post
      Hi all I don't know why people to make conversation start by criticizing everything ,I respect all religions and I wish that every person should make sure that he knows what he's talking about when he approach the subject of religion
      First of all in my simple point of view we should ask ourselves if God exist or not ,if it's a yes why and if it's a no why,
      If there is no God we would be living like animals ,the Quran the Bible ...are guiding us through life showing the right path and how to behave with each other ,be kind ......on the other hand not believing in God means no bible no Quran ...it's like living in a jungle no taboos no rules no respect for ur parents ur neighbor ....because u don't believe in nothing ,I love my religion Islam I read it everyday and I'm proud to say that it made me a better person and I have Christian and Jewish friends and we talk about religion and nobody gets upset because we are not fanatic and I'm sorry to tell u Louai it's very difficult to try and translate the Quran and say u understand it's meaning leave it for the scholars .thanks .
      First of all, everyone shoould be allowed to critisize and debate any subject, including religion. Forbiding that just makes it more suspicious...makes it seem like it can't even handle every other person who critisizes it.

      Second of all, saying that religion is the only way for a civilized community is a very serious bending of reality. If you think that the only reason you'd be a good boy and not go on killing sprees is because of wanting heaven and fearing hell, then I'm afraid to tell you that you're the bad guy. We non religious ppl act good and respectful and kind not bcz we want heaven and fear hell, but bcz we truly are good and care about our community and others. If YOU need heaven and hell to be good, then you're not a proper human being.

      And lastly, dodging my arguments by assuming I must have understood the Quran wrong is the cheapest cop out ever. It's literally trying to delude yourself from the obvious. And FYI, I do speak and read arabic, it's my mother language.
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      Hi,I'm not doubting your knowledge of Arabic I was talking about the translation of the Quran ,and of course everybody should be allowed to debate and criticize any subject and who am I to forbid but sorry in my point of view I would leave the translation of the holly books to the scholars I'm untitled to my own opinion and you to yours .
      And believe me sir I leave my life not thinking of heaven nor hell I m just being a decent person that's the way iwas brought up and still sir I'm a Moslem and have friends and relatives from different religion and I despise extremists ,guns ,war ..... So we are not that different religion apart .so take care and GOD bless.
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      I have little to contribute here, but you have my sympathy. I didn't even read your post because it just ruins my mood to think about it, it also makes me remember all the nonsense arguments my brother comes up with. This frustration lead me to make this thread: 10 Signs of intellectual honesty

      I could give some thoughts on rationality, why I think that people are imperfect at being rational, why I think they like deceiving themselves, this absolutely does not include myself, I see hypocrisy and self-deception more in myself than anyone else. I don't know if this is because I do it more often or because I just look at myself more often than at others. But it'd be slightly off-topic. If you're interested though, look up videos of Julia Galef = )

      The things that they say is extremely silly though. One funny thing is this. One of the most repeated claims of scientific truth is that story/vague description of the development of the fetus. I looked this up and it appears that Aristotles had done research on animals and he knew those things about 700 years before the appearance of the Quran
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post
      I have little to contribute here, but you have my sympathy. I didn't even read your post because it just ruins my mood to think about it, it also makes me remember all the nonsense arguments my brother comes up with. This frustration lead me to make this thread: 10 Signs of intellectual honesty

      I could give some thoughts on rationality, why I think that people are imperfect at being rational, why I think they like deceiving themselves, this absolutely does not include myself, I see hypocrisy and self-deception more in myself than anyone else. I don't know if this is because I do it more often or because I just look at myself more often than at others. But it'd be slightly off-topic. If you're interested though, look up videos of Julia Galef = )

      The things that they say is extremely silly though. One funny thing is this. One of the most repeated claims of scientific truth is that story/vague description of the development of the fetus. I looked this up and it appears that Aristotles had done research on animals and he knew those things about 700 years before the appearance of the Quran
      Yes, I am very interested!! I'll read the thread and also check julia out.

      Also, I heard this 'scientific fact' a billion times before. I've read about it so many times and researched it a lot. It's actually in the OP if you're curious. I've explained them briefly though in a very slacked off way. There were pore of pointers.

      I feel ya. My friends never shutted up about this. My last year of school was full of arguments. lol 10 vs me. And they never accept any error in the Quran, never, no matter how obvious. Like, it's clear that animals and humans wouldn't survive in noah's ark at that height, but my *intelligent* friends, as usual, got the first counter they could grab from their ass, saying that the longest mountain, mount Everest, is mostly ice and so it melts off making the flood being able to cover the tops of the highest mountains as only a fraction of mount Everest. In other words, they assumed that noah's flood wasn't as high as mount Everest bcz Everest's top is pure ice and it can melt, leading to the mountain being covered with less height of water than Everest's actual height. Like, completely ad hoc, completely disregarding that even if that was true, you can still take another tall mountain's rock height and you'd still have dead animals in that height. There are a million places in the world where you'd freeze to death and also can stand on rock or dirt ground. lol I can't believe i have to explain this :p
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      "lol I can't believe i have to explain this :p"

      It's ridiculous xD I say let's just keep talking to them so that maybe some of them some day gain this marvelous ability called "common sense".
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post
      "lol I can't believe i have to explain this :p"

      It's ridiculous xD I say let's just keep talking to them so that maybe some of them some day gain this marvelous ability called "common sense".
      true true. The thing that made me realize my religion is wrong is, when I was young, they used to tell me not to have doubts about Allah, bcz that is kofor (sinning). I bought it at first, but then was like "no way doubt is bad. Doubt is a good thing. What am I gonna lie to myself then and say I don't doubt??!! Plus, god would understand bcz I truly am experiencing some doubt. Let me start questioning the credibility of my religion. If anything, when I treat these doubts, I would become closer to Allah <3 ".

      I started thinking and indulging in arguments against Isalm and also obvious errors in Islam. now, this is a VERY important part:
      I started noticing that I use BS excuses, often made on the spot, to dismiss these arguments and thoughts against Islam, and often holding onto supposed 'miracles of islam' to make me feel secure. After I noticed I was making these excuses, I quickly decided to stop myself everytime I do these. In the end, my biggest goal was not do decieve myself.

      Over a period of a year or two, I slowly drifted away from Islam. This drifting came to a conclusion 2 years ago, where I finally considered myself not a muslim.

      All I believed in was simply indoctrinated BS. All the 'truths', the stories, the 'miracles' (which are only miracles if you're willing to be closed about other data and accept what is obviously far fetched (like miracle verses turning out to be just a stretch of interpretation in an unbelievable scale (I mean just check these miracle verses for yourself. See how they 'linked' them to scientific facts, and always keep a google tab on to check whether the person is conveying true scientific facts anyways))) turned out to be BS jsut like the other 100s of past religions that had these supposed proofs and highly devout members.

      It's not a nice thing though. I was very happy being a Muslim. I was very at peace with my existence and very very ecstatic about heaven and all my dreams coming to life for the rest of eternity. I truly wish Islam was real, but, what am I gonna deceive myself?! Muslim scholars, and this is very disgustingly inaccurate and clearly a sign of weakness, often told us that non believers don't join Islam bcz they want to sin, and not bcz they actually don't believe in Allah. You've probably heard this a million times before. It's just funny how I didn't realize back then that no sane person would willingly refuse heaven and embrace hell for the sake of whisky and hookers. Most non believers don't even do these things anyways to begin with :p
      Last edited by LouaiB; 09-08-2015 at 09:11 PM.
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      My parents and family are Turkish and also religious (Muslim), and I don't really know how it happened. When I was young (anything from 6-12 years, I don't remember) I used to pray so I wouldn't get scared in the dark. I don't remember ever really believing in it though. But I never said anything because people would just get angry and tell me I'm no good for doubting the religion, or maybe I was already arrogant (like I am now) and thought they were too stupid to talk to, I don't know. But I am almost 100% sure that even at 10-11 years old I had strong doubts. My brother openly talked about the flaws though, and I was secretly cheering him on, but I never said anything. I was always ambiguous and when he said something I'd say something back that I thought my parents would tell him. *though now he seems convinced that it's the truth* I am still not openly doubting their religion, because I think they are just too stupid and not worth my time to talk to. My parents and also the rest of my family. Every time my dad starts talking about the Quran and the wonderful things about it I just remain quiet and listen, pretending to care. I don't have to challenge them, I can just get out of the house (when I start living on my own) and dodge the boring conversation altogether.

      I just remembered a funny interview in which John Cleese said, about the time when he was at a religious school and received preachings from religious authorities, "at 11 years, I felt that it insulted my intelligence. I was 11 years old." Life Of Brian- 1979 Debate (2/4) That is exactly the part at which the religious people join the conversation, but the rest of the debate/conversation is also fun, so perhaps you can watch part 1/4 if you like what you see.
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      I'm curious about some of the things your dad thinks are wonderful in the Quran. And how come he misses all the hate verses?!

      Also I'm watching the video right now
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      This touches upon one more silly thing about Muslims, NOBODY READS THE QURAN. 1.5 Billion people pretend that this belief system is the most important thing in the entire cosmos and there is only ONE BOOK about it of about 600 pages that most people could finish within a week, some could read it in a single day. And they just don't fucking read it. Of all the Muslims I know, only 1 or 2 have actually read the damn book. Their excuse is this: "Things get lost in translation, reading it in Turkish would not give me a good idea of the faith." And then they learn to read Arabic and speak the syllables without actually knowing what the words themselves mean. They make their kids memorize these verses and learn to pronounce Arabic text (without knowing what they're actually reading) and pretend that this silly activity is the most profound thing (beside praying) that you could ever do. And on top of that, instead of reading it normally, they sing it. Even Monty Python couldn't have come up with something as silly as this xD

      I don't like remembering things that irritate me, they needlessly spoil my mood, so I can use that excuse to only give 2 examples. He says that Islam always makes things easier, never makes them difficult. So if you're sick, you don't have to pray in the normal way, you can do it while sitting. If you are more sick, you can just do it while lying down. If you're sick or have a tough job during Ramadan, you don't have to fast and you don't get punished. He probably had more of these examples of why Islam never makes life harder, but I don't remember them.

      He also often says that there are truths in the Quran that will always remain true, and that people will continue to discover interesting things in it. For example, there is this thing somewhere about that the shepherd always has to lead the sheep and that otherwise they will get lost, or something like that. And he gave some examples about leaders leading their herd (other people/followers) and I think he said that in every civilization, there will be different peope in different circumstances to whom this saying will apply. I don't remember which examples he gave. Which probably makes you think "What the hell is the use of this paragraph then?!", to which I would say, "I dunno... Better than nothin'...."

      My father hasn't read the Quran btw. I'm almost certain that if he did read it, he would see all the crap, go through a difficult period and probably realise that it's all crap. But I don't care, it's not worth my effort. And my mother prays 5 times a day and occasionally reads the Quran. How silly...
      Last edited by Ginsan; 09-08-2015 at 10:12 PM.
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      Yeah, Ginsan, listen....I'd hate to break your dreams, buuut........even with ppl who can read and understand arabic, most of them can barely understand the Quran cuz it's very old arabic with a shit load of outdated words ............. Like, every 5th verse makes no sense.......lol even if you understand these old words (you can look them up anyways) you'd still have tons and tons of verses make so little sense or are very repetitive. And the thing is, the Quran is often very vague.

      I've read the whole book....yeah...and I've looked up most of the unknown words to me......... It's not as impressive as muslims say...........muslims that don't read arabic are better off not learning to.....that way they'd stay impressed at the Quran more
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
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    20. #20
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      Well it's worse for them but better for the rest of the world!
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    21. #21
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      I just came across this thread and just wanted to chime in briefly. What I like about the discussion you had here is that it brings to light (to some who may not know) the similarities among Muslims and Christians as well as the similarities among their non-religious counterparts in their respective communities. The map in the "Demographics" section here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion seems to indicate similar numbers irreligious people in the US as in the Middle East, two regions among which much tension exists.
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    22. #22
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      @fogelbise what's your point though?
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
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    23. #23
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      ^That the two above-mentioned regions, among which there is much tension, have more in common than they think. Maybe that is something that can inch us all closer together even if it takes quite a number of decades to achieve.

      Edit: I will explain further that many individuals from "the West" or from any primarily Christian areas experience the same discussions (as you probably know) between the religious and irreligious that were discussed in this thread. Especially towards the end of the thread it seemed to me as if it was coming from people with Middle Eastern/Muslim backgrounds. As a start, the irreligious in the West can see brotherhood with the irreligious in the Middle East and perhaps eventually the religious in each region can find what common ground there is in order to work out their differences. Perhaps the irreligious can be what brings each region closer and away from conflict much like how some see the potential for Turkey to provide a philosophical bridge between European and Middle Eastern nations.
      Last edited by fogelbise; 11-20-2015 at 12:45 AM.
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      Please, call me Louai <span class='glow_008000'>LouaiB</span>'s Avatar
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      oh. nice point. Although I can't really comment on it. I'm no expert in these affairs.
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
      Add me as a friend!!!

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      If you are in doubt with The Noble Qur'an, you will think this book was only created by too much imagining people. If you think so, then call for help from everyone in physical and astral world, then all of your work together to create something similar with The Noble Qur'an (Al-Isra : 88). Everything will not be created except to worship who create them (51:56). Whatever you choose in your life, you absolutely will worship who create you. In doubt with it? Do the challenge above. It's back to you, no human can force you to do what they want.
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