Thread: Would the universe exist without observers?

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

Sorry Spock, yeah I did kind of cherry pick in your argument and I know essentially what you mean with all that you said. So you did a good at trying to clearifying your reality, and our assumed shared reality. But thing is that when we try to talk about things that we simply cant percieve here/now. Then it is more of a dream than anything else. I cant for example say or do something to you and expect an certain outcome from you. And even if Im 100% sure about what you might say or do in "theory"=thought. That certainty will not be more real than a dream, even if the outcome matches the expected outcome.

To sum it up some: thought=beliefe= Dream. So actual reality=dream.

To say that a thought=belief=dream, is to say that an orange=apple=earth, because all of these share one common trait (being spherical)... Thought, belief, dream - all of these are subjective, you're right about that, but I hope it's clear that these are pretty different from one another otherwise...

Anyway, that doesn't matter, because subjective things like thought, belief, dream can't tell you much about actual reality. Again - all of these only exist in your own reality, my world wouldn't have your thoughts, beliefs or dreams (although they're going to be similar, because all people are relatively similar).

Plus, dream is not trying to perceive things that you can't sense / know - all you perceive in a dream are things that you already sensed or know, at least on the subconscious level. It's essentially a simulation of "your reality", but instead of using external stimuli, it's produced internally (which is why you can literally control what you sense if you are lucid enough == turned on enough of your sleeping brain).

And to say that the "actual reality" can't be perceived or sensed isn't true either - since "our reality" is essentially all we can and ever sensed or perceived of the "actual reality". Our reality is based on the actual one, which is why we can talk about it to some degree and try to understand it. But the fact that it's proven that the explanation will never be full is here to show how big of a difference there is between our and the actual realities.

Im almost with you on this. But since seeing does not always mean believing. I would say ("actual" reality = what you believe). So there cant be any other reality than the one you are in yourself.

We assume that because we make up our own reality. So if I say that the earth is flat. Then that doesn't mean that it is real unless you believe it to be.

I'm keeping these quotes separate to show you the internal contradiction in what you're saying... You've concluded that "there cant be any other reality than the one you are in yourself" (where "actual reality = what you believe"), then you brought up a great counterargument - the fact that a small percentage of people still believe that the earth is flat. Now, if some people believe in flat earth while others believe in round earth, how can your conclusion be that there is only one observer dependent reality? Especially so if you've concluded that belief is what creates the one actual reality?

Now, about "seeing does not always mean believing" - yeah sure, but the brain is great at settling internal conflict or just ignoring the issue... It's not like an AI in old animated movie, that when you give it a paradox it will start glitching and die / explode. So some might change their belief system to account for what they saw, while others will keep believing and try to find arguments that contradict the visual evidence (e.g. like when you show a flat earther a photo from space, he'll argue that it's either fake, or that the shuttle's window curves the shape like a lens, or another ridiculous argument). Some might even live with two contradicting notions at the same time - after all noone said that "your reality" must be internally consistent.

Plus, none of what you've said concerns actual reality, i.e. the reality that is not a product of observation. Every other reality is generated by someone or something - my reality, yours, the reality of a stray cat, the reality of a Samsung S7, whatever... All of these collect input from the same ("actual") reality to generate their image of the world. However, the original world doesn't require anyone or anything to generate it. It's just there whether or not someone is there to observe it.