Why WILD is uncertain method

[Nfri]

This picutre should show you why wild is uncertain method. why no wild.jpg *note: WAKE = waking state HI = hypnagogic imagery ( thief of consciousness, it is necessary prior to LS, DS or REM) LS = light sleep DS = deep sleep possibilities are: 1)wake->hi->ls->ds->ls->rem = no wild 2)wake->hi->ls->rem = no wild 3)wake->hi->rem = no wild 4)wake->any wild technique->hi->rem = wild What I want to say is that WILD is not mainly do the technique correctly but to know how to control or predict this body phases and aim only for wake-any wild technique-hi rem. This is most important in WILD.

[Goldenspark]

Hey Nfri, I have a theory that it's not as simple as that. My WILDs (mostly supplement assisted, but a few naturally) occur I think by waiting until the brain's chemistry is suited to REM, simply by staying awake. I tend to wake up at the end of each REM period. All my WILDs have then happened about an hour to 1.5 hours later, simply by waiting until the next REM period comes round. It suggests that if you just go to sleep and don't intervene, then yes, your diagrams are correct, but you can force yourself to stay awake through the LS and DS periods. At least that's what it feels liek to me.

[Nfri]

Hi Goldenspark! Hey Nfri, I have a theory that it's not as simple as that. Sure it's not that simple, I just wanted to simply show my idea why I think wild is not easy. I think by waiting until the brain's chemistry is suited to REM, simply by staying awake. but you can force yourself to stay awake through the LS and DS periods. So do you think that lenght of WBTB influence sleep pattern? I don't think that if your body has light sleep on schedule you can wait awake instead of light or deep sleep and then continue REM. My wilds occur when I wake up from REM and then, after I fall asleep again, my body continues the same phase - REM. This is what is essential for wilding.

[yaya]

That picture actually showed the most important reason why many techniques like WILD, FILD, DEILD and also SSILD fail. In fact , we attempt them maybe at a wrong time which our brain wave is not suitable to have LD. Maybe that's why people who are master in DILD , have always success in LD. Because practicing DILD is not depended on which sleeping state we are while falling sleep. Thanks!

[Nfri]

That picture actually showed the most important reason why many techniques like WILD, FILD, DEILD and also SSILD fail. In fact , we attempt them maybe at a wrong time which our brain wave is not suitable to have LD. Maybe that's why people who are master in DILD , have always success in LD. Because practicing DILD is not depended on which sleeping state we are while falling sleep. Thanks! I thank you yaya, you nicely summarized my point

[Goldenspark]

I guess people are all different, but as I understand it, the various sleep states are dominated by hormone balance, where a shift in hormones causes a shift in state, e.g. the drift from nREM into REM. I find I quite often wake at the end of REM, and my memory of how vivid the dream is is stronger just as I wake. I've not been able to DEILD from this state (I've tried quite a lot). It seems like the REM period is over and I can't get back to it.

[Nfri]

I find I quite often wake at the end of REM, and my memory of how vivid the dream is is stronger just as I wake. I've not been able to DEILD from this state (I've tried quite a lot). It seems like the REM period is over and I can't get back to it. Yes, I usually wake up at the end of REM and I'm unable to wild as well. But if I'm accidentally (flatmate, girlfriend or outside noises) woken up in the midle of REM, then it's easy to DEILD or VILD for me. the various sleep states are dominated by hormone balance, where a shift in hormones causes a shift in state, e.g. the drift from nREM into REM. I guess I need to learn more about this stuff.

[mimihigurashi]

*sigh* So ideally, we need to wake up after a dream (REM), and go directly into another REM period? And doesn't deep sleep cease to happen after roughly 4.5 hours of sleep, as shown in charts like this one? If so, what we would need to do is wake up naturally after 4-5 or more hours of sleep, after a dream (in REM), do a WILD technique and pray that REM sleep comes next instead of light sleep, lol. Or of course, aim for a REM period and try to wake up right during it. But has this been proven effective? How many people figured the hour they need to wake up at and had a successful WILD? Because I've always only heard minimal discussion of the importance of waking up at the right time, and if it really boosted the chances considerably, I imagine people would talk about it more. Most people only talk about the WILD techniques themselves. Also, would it be okay to try WILD twice in the same morning, by waking up in one REM period (after 5 hours of sleep), and then if that fails, try the next one (after 6.5 hours)? Would that disturb the body's sleep pattern, or would it ignore the fact that you woke up and continue its usual schedule?

[Nfri]

And doesn't deep sleep cease to happen after roughly 4.5 hours of sleep, as shown in [URL="http://www.luciddreamexplorers.com/dreamscience/sleep_cycle_REM_8_hour_graph.jpg"]charts like this one[/UR Hey mimihigurashi, good remarks. First about those sleep charts - Everyone has different sleep pattern every night. Factors that affect it are for example food, drink, lenght of sleep previous nights, depression, emotion, illness, number of awakening last night, age and so on. If you are healthy and avoiding all substances that affect sleep (caffeine, alcohol...) and you have solid sleep routine, then your sleep patterns are similar, not the same, but similar. I'm in deep sleep phase only in the first 3 hours of sleep usually. This is why it's complicated to know, when your REM is and when is ideal to wake up for wild and how long to be awake. I don't have recipe for this so far. Or of course, aim for a REM period and try to wake up right during it. But has this been proven effective? I think this is the best way because I had wilds only in this case, so I've got it proven on myself. Because I've always only heard minimal discussion of the importance of waking up at the right time, and if it really boosted the chances considerably, I imagine people would talk about it more. Most people only talk about the WILD techniques themselves. I think that this is why so many people failing at wilds so often. Everybody talks about how you should move your finger or ass or whatever, what you should think and how you should lie and other crap. I don't care about this, wild is easy for me under the right conditions - rem-wake-hi-rem. If I'm lucky to have this ''brain chemistry'' I usualy use basic visualization to enter a lucid dream. It's really easy. But if I'm not lucky in the condition, I will never have WILD. If there is light or deep sleep after, I sometimes have DILD but that depends on light sleep a deep sleep phases lenght ahead of REM. Also, would it be okay to try WILD twice in the same morning, by waking up in one REM period (after 5 hours of sleep), and then if that fails, try the next one (after 6.5 hours)? Would that disturb the body's sleep pattern, or would it ignore the fact that you woke up and continue its usual schedule? I wouldn't agree. Yes it would change your sleep pattern, but not disturb. (if you aren't using alarm and wake up naturally)

[mimihigurashi]

If you are healthy and avoiding all substances that affect sleep (caffeine, alcohol...) and you have solid sleep routine, then your sleep patterns are similar, not the same, but similar. I'm in deep sleep phase only in the first 3 hours of sleep usually. Is that so? Well, lucky me then, I fit those criteria. So the more routine and normal your life is, the more likely you are to have a normal sleep cycle, makes sense. I did go through my dream journal out of curiousity, I wish I had marked the fall asleep and awake time of more successful WILDs I had in the past, but from the few that I found with time details written, they all coincided with the patterns indicated in the sleep charts, the WILDs were successful roughly after 5 and 6.5 hours of sleep, during the 3rd and 4th REM period. I'm going to start experimenting with this from tomorrow morning on. I think that this is why so many people failing at wilds so often. Everybody talks about how you should move your finger or ass or whatever, what you should think and how you should lie and other crap. I don't care about this, wild is easy for me under the right conditions - rem-wake-hi-rem. If I'm lucky to have this ''brain chemistry'' I usualy use basic visualization to enter a lucid dream. It's really easy. But if I'm not lucky in the condition, I will never have WILD. If there is light or deep sleep after, I sometimes have DILD but that depends on light sleep a deep sleep phases lenght ahead of REM. Amen to that. I'm definitely no expert but I think it makes a lot of sense that the time at which you attempt WILD is the most important, the technique is secondary. There's a thread that's been going on for a while now called "Testing SSILD for a month" or something, and now I wonder how many of those people are actually waking up at the right time. It's possible that a large chunk is waking up in light sleep, attempts SSILD, it fails because REM is not next on the list, and blame the failure on something else, even SSILD itself.

[ThreeCat]

I wonder what some of our proficient WILDers would think about this (sivason, Sageous, anotherdreamer--if I left you out, no offense). "Waiting around" for another REM period seems suspect to me, though Daniel Love recommends this in his book. I am guessing it is really a matter of attention. If you are sble to maintain focus throughout yhe transition, shouldn't be a big deal. Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning? Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM.

[Nfri]

one does not simply rem.jpg Hello fellow milder ThreeCat! Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning? My morning NREM barriers (like the name btw) after WBTB are usually light sleep phases for ~20 minutes. This isn't thin for WILDing. Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM. Yes, that's what I'm talking about - these are the ''lucky cases'' of (REM)->AWAKE->HH->REM

[mimihigurashi]

Gonna use one of those Android apps to try to pinpoint my REM periods. And maybe have an auto-dismiss alarm go off during the 3rd or 4th. Hope it's gonna work..

[ThreeCat]

one does not simply rem.jpg Hello fellow milder ThreeCat! My morning NREM barriers (like the name btw) after WBTB are usually light sleep phases for ~20 minutes. This isn't thin for WILDing. Yes, that's what I'm talking about - these are the ''lucky cases'' of (REM)->AWAKE->HH->REM For whatever reason, my barrier is almost non-existent. I usually begin experiencing very vivid dreamlets upon falling asleep, that then solidify into dreams. How do you know your barrier is 20 minutes, btw? Also, please tell me you made that meme. If not . . .

[Sageous]

I think you might be making this problem far more complicated than it really is, Nfri First: Your "wake->any wild technique->hi->rem = wild" formula sounds a lot like a DEILD, which in my opinion also is the best, and easiest, form of WILD -- as long as you are able to recognize your exit from the last dream and dive back in before you wake up, of course. In a sense, doing a DEILD is the solution to your entire problem, so you could have left it there... But DEILD's can be tricky, are often serendipitous, and work best when exiting a LD, so "classic" WILD might be necessary, so: Yes, WILD's tend to most likely occur at fairly specific periods during your sleep cycle, but it is not all that hard to find your personal sweet spot for when to do WBTB, and how long that WBTB ought to last, both to easily catch that next REM period and to be sure your head is still in a dreamy state when you lie down to WILD. A little trial-and-error experimentation will probably get you to your specific best time to WILD reasonably soon -- and I would highly recommend starting that experimentation after a minimum of 5 hours of sleep when, all charts aside, most people's REM periods tend to be very close together, with minimal NREM "barrier" time. And yes, Nfri, some of us do say things about timing: If you look at my DVA WILD class, you'll see that its second session is dedicated to timing. I -- and a few others, I've noticed -- have also been mentioning the importance of timing, and finding your own optimum timing, whenever it fits into a conversation. So some of us do understand the importance of timing, and are making an effort to avoid the "lie down and hold still" crap, and some of us do understand that a WILD transition is more about getting your head in the right place at the right time than it is about wiggling your finger or whatever other techniques are being invented these days. So I understand where you're coming from, but I hope that you understand that there are people who understand and try to share the importance of timing; you are not alone in this. Speaking of crap: As a sort of side note, I'm not quite sure why you are including HI in your formula. Yes, HI can happen, but it also doesn't need to be there for a WILD to succeed. HI is not necessary and certainly not crucial to succeeding at a WILD dive. Looking for or, worse, waiting for HI that might not come can be a real distraction for some, and might not be the best thing to include in your plan. Be prepared for HI (preferably prepared to ignore it), but I suggest you do not make it too important. tl;dr: Yes, timing matters in WILD, but you can find your WILD sweet spot and optimal WBTB time with a little experimentation. Yes, though sleep cycles can vary, most people seem to be amenable to WILD after about 5 hours of sleep, so that is where your quest for perfect timing should begin. So yes, timing is an important facet to successful WILDing, maybe the most important, but your personal sleep schedule can be learned fairly quickly, if you are willing to fail at a few WILD attempts while you look for your best moment to dive.

[Goldenspark]

I wonder what some of our proficient WILDers would think about this (sivason, Sageous, anotherdreamer--if I left you out, no offense). "Waiting around" for another REM period seems suspect to me, though Daniel Love recommends this in his book. I am guessing it is really a matter of attention. If you are sble to maintain focus throughout yhe transition, shouldn't be a big deal. Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning? Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM. Hi ThreeCat, the waiting around thing may just be me. It's possible that I am just not accomplished enough to drop back into REM after an awakening at the end of, or during, a REM episode. I have been trying to lie still on waking to go back in, but I find that really hard!

[ThreeCat]

Check out Sageous's class. I think many if us, after we've fully awakened from REM, are SOL concerning WILD. Better (like Sageous says above) to find that moment if awareness directly after awakening, when we're still in hypnopompic, and DEILD from there.

[Nfri]

I think you might be making this problem far more complicated than it really is, Nfri If you look at my DVA WILD class, you'll see that its second session is dedicated to timing. Hi Sageous, thanks for your remarks and I'm glad that you (as one of the few) highlights the importance of timing in your DVA WILD class second session. If the timing wouln't be so complicated for me then I believe I would have WILD every night. First: Your "wake->any wild technique->hi->rem = wild" formula sounds a lot like a DEILD I'm not talking about DEILD. (I like deild, I tend to use it after each ld and agree that it's the easiest method if you have some rem juice left). What I meant is classic WILD, in my case VILD induction. but it is not all that hard to find your personal sweet spot for when to do WBTB, and how long that WBTB ought to last, both to easily catch that next REM period and to be sure your head is still in a dreamy state when you lie down to WILD. This is it!!! I think this is the most important step in wilding. For me it's really hard to find my personal sweet dreamy state. I think this spot is every night in another time as I said above. The inducion itself is the easy part for me, but to find this spot is really difficult. And I think for most people as well and makes WILDing so unrealiable. Speaking of crap: As a sort of side note, I'm not quite sure why you are including HI in your formula. Yes, HI can happen, but it also doesn't need to be there for a WILD to succeed. HI is not necessary and certainly not crucial to succeeding at a WILD dive. I claim that Hypnagogic Imagination (not some color halucinations, but this not controlled spontaneous imagination which tries to steal your consiousnes) is need every time prior light,deep or rem sleep. If it there is no HI, there is simply no sleep. Without this phase you just couldn't fall asleep. It doesn't matter if you remember it or not. It's always there. Many wild techniques are based how to control this imagination or observe or simply ignore it, whatever works. and think dreamy thoughts for a while before going back to bed and starting up a WILD. There’s really no more to it. Do you think that dreamy thoughts could summon REM phase? What works for me is caffeine for example. It destroys NREM bariers effectively. But there is a chance that you won't fall asleep if you have bad timing.

[Sageous]

Do you think that dreamy thoughts could summon REM phase? What works for me is caffeine for example. It destroys NREM bariers effectively. But there is a chance that you won't fall asleep if you have bad timing. No, dreamy thoughts only keep you in the right state of mind during WBTB. I'm not sure anything can "summon" REM; your REM periods will come as scheduled according to your sleep cycle that night (which is why it is best to do WILD after several hours of sleep, so you don't have to worry so much about catching -- or summoning -- the next REM period). I've never heard of caffiene inducing REM, but if that works for you, then keep it up! That said, I must admit that I am not very concerned about this REM barrier, aka NREM or Delta sleep. I find lucid time in NREM very relaxing and, at worst, it amounts to little more than a brief, quiet pause while waiting for the dream to begin. So a moment or two of NREM during a WILD dive doesn't seem to be that much of a barrier to me.

[Sivason]

Exploring nREM can be a good hobby in and of itself.

[Nfri]

That said, I must admit that I am not very concerned about this REM barrier, aka NREM or Delta sleep. I find lucid time in NREM very relaxing and, at worst, it amounts to little more than a brief, quiet pause while waiting for the dream to begin. So a moment or two of NREM during a WILD dive doesn't seem to be that much of a barrier to me. Exploring nREM can be a good hobby in and of itself. I'm glad that you said this guys. Do you see the catch? Some people like you have the ability to stay aware during NREM barriers - light sleep mostly. For wild expert like you, there isn't much a problem to be lucid in NREM barriers. For wild noobs like me it is almost impossible to stay awake during this phase. I fall asleep (lose awareness) or stay awake. So basicaly I'm saying that if you not an expert in wild, or budhist monk or profound meditator or I don't know what else, staying lucid during NREM barriers is not attainable for lucid dreamers like myself. These are levels of WILD according to difficulty from the easiest (not full list): 1. remLUCID-AWAKEorNOT-DEILD-remLUCID 2. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-REM = this is what I'm capable of and I think there is lots of oneironauts who rarely hit this lucky condition and succeed in WILD 3. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-LUCIDlightsleep-LUCIDrem = this is like to want from someone to draw beautiful picture when he's can't draw a circle for example

[Sageous]

Okay, Nfri. This is your thread and, even though I make a real effort to pay attention to the difficulties of novices, and certainly still remember the ones I endured, I suppose I could be underestimating or simply choosing to ignore this REM barrier. So, aside from one last point (in a sec), I'll concede, and step back so you can build this thread as you see fit. The only functional recommendation I can add is what I've already said: do your WILD after 5 hours of sleep, and experiment until you find your personal sweet-spot of closely-spaced REM periods, and this barrier will not be a problem. The only other disagreement I will offer is that I have seen many novices become lucid through that REM barrier without issue or real problem; I really do not think that you must have guru-level skills in order to negotiate a few minutes of darkness waiting for the dream to form. But I suppose I could be wrong, and those novices were just lucky. That said, I have but one warning: What you are doing here is arguing for a limitation. You are saying that there is a barrier that is not only difficult to overcome, but perhaps impossible for a novice LD'er to get through. I've never found this to be a good idea. Sure, there is a REM barrier if that's what you want to call NREM, but it is very easily overcome if you are mentally prepared and positive, regardless of your experience: if you are unable to hold your focus through NREM and fall asleep, but you are mentally prepared to LD, you will very likely find yourself in a DILD, or perhaps a recognizable false awakening. But you will only emerge into a DILD if you go to sleep with a positive, confident attitude; fall asleep sure that there is something that will stop you, and you will surely be stopped. Remember that a successful LD ought to be the goal, and how you get there ought to be secondary; there is nothing wrong or inferior with becoming lucid through DILD, so if that barrier is too much for a novice, perhaps she should consider DILD until she is more experienced. Successful LD'ing is in itself breaking a very powerful barrier, namely the one that says you are not supposed to be awake while you are asleep. To add even more barriers to that very large one is not a good idea, in my opinion.

[NyxCC]

Nfri For the most part I agree with what has been said by Sageous, and my personal experience when trying to ld is that the NREM barrier is much shorter and lighter after a few hours of sleep. In addition, I want to remind you about another benefit of wbtb that hasn't been mentioned so far in the discussion, which is that a wbtb may result in significant REM rebound, so this can lead to NREM of perhaps just couple of seconds which is perceived as immediate REM on our part and is quite convenient for wilding.

[MisakaMikoto]

I'm glad that you said this guys. Do you see the catch? Some people like you have the ability to stay aware during NREM barriers - light sleep mostly. For wild expert like you, there isn't much a problem to be lucid in NREM barriers. For wild noobs like me it is almost impossible to stay awake during this phase. I fall asleep (lose awareness) or stay awake. So basicaly I'm saying that if you not an expert in wild, or budhist monk or profound meditator or I don't know what else, staying lucid during NREM barriers is not attainable for lucid dreamers like myself. These are levels of WILD according to difficulty from the easiest (not full list): 1. remLUCID-AWAKEorNOT-DEILD-remLUCID 2. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-REM = this is what I'm capable of and I think there is lots of oneironauts who rarely hit this lucky condition and succeed in WILD 3. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-LUCIDlightsleep-LUCIDrem = this is like to want from someone to draw beautiful picture when he's can't draw a circle for example Hi, I belive i might have in past accidently stayed conscious in NREM due to 'Prospective Memory' or unintentional MILD Practice. I guess it happend due to long falling asleep mixed with repetitive counting. Counting for more than thirty-minutes resulted in solidifying my intention to keep on counting. And after that long time i had moments when i suddenly lose consciousness and due to that stopped to count. After few seconds or maybe even minutes i've regained consciousness by suddenly getting some kind of reminder from brain? That i stopped counting and i need to start counting again. My theory might be correct or it might be just coincidence. I belive it might be correct since i had same sensation with MILD Tech some time ago I had intention set to reality check every 15 minutes and i've repeated words 'I'il remember to do reality check every 15 minutes' and then i fell asleep. As the time of around 15 minutes passed in dream world i've gotten that sudden shock reminder about reality checking and so i decided to do rc in dream and yet it failed due to me thinking that i can breathe thru nose due to having some wound Maybe Prospective Memory/MILD could do a job as an anchor in WILDs finely on it's own? It's just a little theory of mine tho Edit: This article is also interesting about 'Prospective Memory': http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.c...ve-memory.html

[FryingMan]

Successful LD'ing is in itself breaking a very powerful barrier, namely the one that says you are not supposed to be awake while you are asleep. To add even more barriers to that very large one is not a good idea, in my opinion. This! Lucid dreaming requires that multiple things coincide: sleep, sleep cycle phase, intent, memory, self-awareness, attitude, being sufficiently rested. That's quite enough of a barrier. Lucid dreaming is uncertain under any circumstances because getting all these things to align on any sort of a regular basis takes monumental effort, determination, patience, and practice. I don't see a need to make a special case for WILD.