Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Originally Posted by Sageous

I don't think they really need one, since, because of their extremely ephemeral nature, they really don't amount to any more than the rest of the "noise" you experience on the way to your dream. So try not to take them too seriously; just let them slide on by, or, at the most, try to use them to form your actual dream (this is harder than you might think, because you're still a bit to close to wakefulness, and risk waking up if you attempt to prolong or control a dreamlet).

This is great advice. I often joke that H.H and H.I. hate to be looked at directly. You are still too close to awake, and the very act of paying direct attention can move you towards the awake side of things. It is a bit of an art to learn to let them slide past as Sageous says,,, but it is an art worth developing. The stuff that happens too early may seem neat, but in order to observe it, and not harm your chance at an LD it is going to take a subtle frame of mind. The stuff is there,,, you are there,,, that is witnessing in a way, but to focus is a mistake.

Originally Posted by sivason

I often joke that H.H and H.I. hate to be looked at directly.

Haha! It's funny because it's so true. I'll sometimes get little chains of dreamlets like this as well. And I agree, it's all just part of the transition process. I rarely if ever even record them in my journal (bad, I know, I should).. but it's for the simple reason that it is just part of transitioning.

I tend to agree with fogelbise, that there is a modicum of awareness going on there. Again, all signs pointing the way for a lucid dream. The trick to these dreamlets (or any other transitional element), is NOT to treat them as things that you have to grab and forcefully form into a lucid dream, but rather, treat them as phases and let them slide on by. Later on, when you attempt WILD again, you'll be able to note these mini aware dreams as milestones, which will guide you on to lucidity.

All that said, yoh @ Sageous! Do you want me to merge this thread into the WILD Q&A thread?

That's an interesting question. I had been up until now assuming that those little vivid images of vivid movies that I get at times as I fall asleep are HH because I believe myself not to be asleep yet. However, perhaps I am mistaken in that. Perhaps they are dreamlets after all. One of my favorites the other night was this busy looking woman who looked like she was on staff in a doctor's office with a clipboard, and she bussled up to me, and said in an accusing voice "What are you doing here?" Like I do not belong. And I thought at her "Falling asleep" and I think she then hustled off, but alas I did not fall asleep, but woke up instead, probably because I had focused on her too much.

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

All that said, yoh @ Sageous! Do you want me to merge this thread into the WILD Q&A thread?

Yes please! I would've done it myself, but I don't have a clue...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Yes please! I would've done it myself, but I don't have a clue...

Ok fixed.

The problem is, I'm not even aware of them until I suddenly realize "hey, I'm hallucinating" and then I don't get the chance to let them go by, because they are gone by this time. A tease, really

^^ That seems a nice way to look at the dreamlets (and HI, for that matter): as teases. Just like movie trailers.

If instead of thinking, "Hey, I'm hallucinating," why not think something more timely (in this case) like, "There goes an hallucination; the dream itself must be right around the corner," and then let the memory of the dreamlet help carry you into the dream. If you can't avoid them, you might as well put them to work for you.

That's the thing though--is I lose awareness for a short time, and when I become aware it's like a sudden jolt--like, there's this little dreamlet right? And suddenly, I'm aware again. But it's like the shock of suddenly becoming aware again shatters the dreamlet. Kinda hard to explain. I suppose some form of MILD might help this, suggesting to myself I will ease into awareness instead of it being so sudden.

^^ Yup. Some sort of MILD or other mental prep will definitely help; indeed, the very act of writing these posts and thinking about the problem is likely helping! If your mind is prepared for the sudden snap of awareness, or, better, if you manage to learn to avoid losing awareness in the first place, that shock will diminish or at least become just more noise that you're effectively dealing with on the way to the dream.

So, I suggest some additional mental prep, either with MILD (i.e., telling yourself before the dream that you will not be effected by the shock), by building a set of expectations that includes dealing with the shock, or by simply learning to hold onto your awareness throughout the dive.

Every once in a rare while in WL, I'll get these "waking up" moments where I just stop and feel like all life has been a dream, my vision is a sort of "screen" that I'm watching, and I wonder at the nature of existence, etc. Is that the sort of thing you're looking for in this RRC or is is a different sort of "AHA" moment?

That experience, though interesting and something you should value, seems different from a RRC. In a RRC, you would be on that screen you're watching: its general purpose is to help you realize that you are an integral part of your immediate reality, and that your interaction with it has effects. To watch reality from a removed position (outside that screen) and, oddly, to see it as a dream, tends to separate you from that feeling of interaction, and does not do much to prepare you for sensing that interaction in a dream.

So, though it is an interesting moment, and you should pay attention to it for a variety of other existential reasons (like, that sort of moment gives you a chance to view the world from angles or perspectives not usually available, which we all should do), this moment is not really like an RRC -- however, following the moment with an RRC might be most helpful, because your mind is already in the right place!

Some Due Diligence:

FryingMan just PM'ed me with a question about my apparent shift on the choices of Mantra's on the What Happened? thread in this forum, and it seemed like something that ought to be shared. So here it is:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Hi Sageous,
Rather than spam the "what happend" thread, I'll PM -- I just reread the mantra session and came away again with the notion that the mantra is a general awareness thing, not related to the specific dream you're interested in. You do mention "relevant to goals" but it's not clear that goals are general (go to sleep aware) vs. specific to the dream (I'm at a party in a park). Just my probably overly detail-focused opinion . It does seem that the recommendation is to come up with a generic mantra that is "meaningful" to you. Maybe some more guidance as to what the meaning should be about would be helpful. Thanks again for all your help.

Huh. I just reread my mantra session (which I haven't done in, like, a year), and sure enough you are correct. Know what else? I like what I said then much better than what I just said on the What Happened? thread.

Both are correct, I think, and though my opinion of building a mantra that matches your goals is still my current favorite, if I really had to weight the two options, having one or two "generic" mantras that mean something globally to you, regardless of your current dream goals, is probably the better way to go.

It's funny how the mind evolves; a year ago I never would have said to relate a mantra directly to your dream plans, and now it's almost all I do... with no regard to my own original instruction. Go figure. Whatever the case, in terms of building a proper "mindfulness baseline," a general mantra is a much better choice. Sorry to confuse!

Sageous,
Carrying on from our PM discussion: yes, clarification on just what you're talking about with visualization WRT WILDing would be appreciated .

OK on the subject of visualization: I'm still not clear on just what your suggestion is. One can visualize a desired WILD dream during the day, like in MILD and reflection/intention, I get that. But what I'm not sure about and what I'd like to understand is how much / what kind of visualization to do, if at all, *during the dive*, while one is LDHSW + mantra. And what do you mean by layering visualization over the mantra?

If I can get away without any visualization during the dive I suspect this will help me get to sleep faster. But I'd like to know if this increases the risk of arriving in the dream state with nothing to see but the back of one's eyelids. Heck arriving even in my room would be fine, at least I could get up and move and try flying out the window or something, but getting lucid with absolutely no dream there (if that's what happened to me) is...well, pointless? You mentioned that could have been a timing thing for me (no useful REM left). I don't see visualization part of other WILD tutorials, other than specifically VWILD.

So I think a discussion of: 1) just what you're suggesting to students, and 2) what you personally do yourself would be very enlightening!

thanks!

Ah - here we are once more - FryingMan - you have indeed the same questions, I feel - but I need some more time to distil them from this and the other thread of Sageous and my and your and his and more earlier posts - and my head, too!

I´ve also been checking out the mantra lesson once more.
Pointless post, this - sort of - but a reminder for me to try and be concise about it all later on!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

OK on the subject of visualization: I'm still not clear on just what your suggestion is. One can visualize a desired WILD dream during the day, like in MILD and reflection/intention, I get that. But what I'm not sure about and what I'd like to understand is how much / what kind of visualization to do, if at all, *during the dive*, while one is LDHSW + mantra.

I really can't tell you that, FryngMan. How you visualize, what you visualize, and even when you visualize is totally up to you depending on your skills, your desires, and where ultimately this visualization takes you. You'll need to do a little experimenting on your own, to see what works for you (something this personal will work differently for each person). I know that's not what you want to hear, but I believe it is the case. This is one reason that I don't talk much about visualization (other than that I'm really bad at it myself and can offer zero anecdotal "wisdom").

And what do you mean by layering visualization over the mantra?

I'm sorry, I thought it was you I was discussing this with; must have been someone else! What I mean by this is quite simple. If you are visualizing a dream place or goal, try to hold that visualization in your mind as you recite your mantra and allow yourself to fall asleep. In other words, let the visualization be a quiet blanket of imagination or dimension over your otherwise unchanged mantra/LDHSW routine.

If I can get away without any visualization during the dive I suspect this will help me get to sleep faster. But I'd like to know if this increases the risk of arriving in the dream state with nothing to see but the back of one's eyelids. Heck arriving even in my room would be fine, at least I could get up and move and try flying out the window or something, but getting lucid with absolutely no dream there (if that's what happened to me) is...well, pointless? I don't see visualization part of other WILD tutorials, other than specifically VWILD.

Speaking as someone who has enjoyed thousands of WILDs without an ounce of visualization, I can safely confirm that yes, you can do without it and still arrive at an actual dream.

So yes, you can leave out visualization, as it is not fundamentally a part of WILD anyway. If it doesn't serve to help you, especially if it keeps you from falling asleep, then set visualization aside for a while.

For what it's worth, one of my long-term practices/goals in LDing is specifically to "get lucid with absolutely no dream there," so you might not want to sell such an experience short. Being self-aware during NREM/delta sleep can be an amazing experience; I even started a thread on the subject once upon a time called Exploring Delta Sleep. However, you likely wouldn't "see" the backs of your eyelids during delta:

As you note I said somewhere else, that seeing-the-backs-of-your-eyelids moment very likely had more to do with your physical state (i.e. your body's sleep cycle was already concluded, and more dreaming -- or sleep -- might not have been in the pipeline) than it did a failure of your WILD attempt. Indeed, from what I read, I think I drew the conclusion that your attempt actually succeeded, and there was simply no dream waiting for you. That will not happen every time (though it could be likely to happen again if you continue to harbor expectations that it will! ).

So I think a discussion of: 1) just what you're suggesting to students, and 2) what you personally do yourself would be very enlightening!

That would be great, especially if there are some successful creative visualizers out there who can chime in with info or advice that can modify my lame first response in this post!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I really can't tell you that, FryngMan. How you visualize, what you visualize, and even when you visualize is totally up to you depending on your skills, your desires, and where ultimately this visualization takes you. You'll need to do a little experimenting on your own, to see what works for you (something this personal will work differently for each person). I know that's not what you want to hear, but I believe it is the case. This is one reason that I don't talk much about visualization (other than that I'm really bad at it myself and can offer zero anecdotal "wisdom").

That's fine, but I don't recall reading that from you before, in the sessions, Q&A, etc. So thus my confusion when you were asking me about my visualization or mentioning the visualisation. "What visualization is he talking about, I don't recall anything about any visualization during LDHSW from Sageous?" was my response. And thus my follow up questions and so we got to this point.

So I think it would really help clear things up if you have something in the session that specifically mentions this optional layered visualization, what it's good for, etc.

And if I may ask a follow-up, just what *is* the point of the layered visualization? To make sure one arrives in that particular scene? If the only reason is to help stay awake, I can safely ignore it at this point since that is so not my issue with WILDs right now .

As always thanks for your thoughtful and patient replies!

^^ I could be wrong, but I believe I was talking about visualization in response to a question from you (or perhaps someone else). I was not pulling a suggestion that you visualize from my own imagination or whim. If you'd share with me where I brought up visualization on my own, I'd appreciate it. Aside from using it to help form your dreams from HI, I really have no use for visualization in WILD, so I'm just not seeing myself asking after it in other people.

So, since visualization is not included in any real way in my WILD class, my suggestion of layering your visualization over your mantra is certainly not going to be there... nor will it be, because I made that suggestion in response to your reports and requests, thinking that it might help you. I have no interest in adding visualization to my WILD class -- mostly because it doesn't need to be there. Regarding being more specific about it, I'm not sure I can add more to what I already said. And it's point? Well, that too was up to you and your use of it, but I guess that suggesting layering your visualization over your WILD attempt was so that it would be included in your WILD attempt, and perhaps enhance it. Nothing more. This is not some new technique meant to do some specific thing, you could certainly ignore it if your feel like it.

I am more than willing to adopt new ideas and look for new routes toward making WILD's work for individuals, FryingMan, and I'm willing to admit that my own perception of WILD and LD'ing in general is in a constant state of flux, but those adoptions are in addition to the basic WILD method I've outlined (repeat: outlined) on this forum. This is not a comprehensive text by any measure, so I hope you won't mind if I don't feel compelled to go back and edit (or defend) the original course as we all work together to find ways -- even novel ways -- to become lucid through WILD. The WILD class, I feel, is a good foundation for the process, but it isn't everything -- and I have neither time nor inclination to include everything in the class.

If any of this is unclear, to anyone, please ask. This I think is important.

Hi Sageous,
Post #680 in What Happened? thread:

Originally Posted by Sageous

Yes. we're supposed to keep some visualization and/or some aspect of the desired dream in our minds throughout the dive.

I think it's a case of ballooning misinterpretations on my part. Yes, I brought visualizations up first. I was asking, "should I be doing this? [during the dive]" I thought it may be disadvantageous to do this, too simulating perhaps. I'm simply trying to figure out how to do WILD "right," per your recommendations. It's probably my fault in reading too much into various responses.

Your answer quoted above, "yes, we're supposed to..." My confusion: "Hmm, we're 'supposed to', but I don't see it mentioned in the class sessions."

Probably not worth spending any more time on it.

The earlier answer of "visualizations not required" cleared everything up.

^^ Well that makes sense, I guess. In hindsight I do wish you had noticed the "and/or" sentence in that post initially, as it would have made my position pretty clear and would have saved us both some trouble. Oh well, by-gones, as they say.

Moving on...

I found your thread and I've been trying the method that you outline. The problem that I'm encountering is that I'm really stressed right now. So when I try to let the dream form itself first, and then I mold it second, it ends up being me watching memories and actions repeated over and over. That's the first place that it goes.

Usually I try to WILD by involving all of my senses in it until I am there (smelling the air, feeling the earth beneath my feet, seeing the location, hearing the surroundings). So there isn't a step where I don't have complete control. Last night, I tried the WBTB WILD method again, after about 6 hours of sleep. Then I sat there watching the previous day's memories being repeated over and over and over for about 2 hours, hoping it would eventually turn into a REM dream, until I had finally had enough and I woke myself up.

Do you know if this is normal under times of stress? Is there a way that I can get past it, I must be doing something wrong right? Or should I just wait until I'm no longer this stressed to try it again?

Sorry for all of the questions, I appreciate any help that you can give me.

^^ I don't know if these things are normal during stressful times, but I'm not surprised. WILD is all about being relaxed and keeping your mind as still as you can, so if you are suffering from stress that prevents relaxation, WILD would be very difficult.

In a sense you literally are doing something wrong by trying WILD when your mind is being besieged by stress. I suggest that you work on the relieving the stress, and hold off on attempting any WILD dives until you can relax witout interruption. It's always a good idea to keep up the mental-prep daytime work, though!

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

I found your thread and I've been trying the method that you outline. The problem that I'm encountering is that I'm really stressed right now. So when I try to let the dream form itself first, and then I mold it second, it ends up being me watching memories and actions repeated over and over. That's the first place that it goes.

Usually I try to WILD by involving all of my senses in it until I am there (smelling the air, feeling the earth beneath my feet, seeing the location, hearing the surroundings). So there isn't a step where I don't have complete control. Last night, I tried the WBTB WILD method again, after about 6 hours of sleep. Then I sat there watching the previous day's memories being repeated over and over and over for about 2 hours, hoping it would eventually turn into a REM dream, until I had finally had enough and I woke myself up.

Do you know if this is normal under times of stress? Is there a way that I can get past it, I must be doing something wrong right? Or should I just wait until I'm no longer this stressed to try it again?

Sorry for all of the questions, I appreciate any help that you can give me.

This still was an interesting nREM experience and should not be counted as a failure. That type of sequence is very hard to work with, but you were aware during sleep,,, so

[This post, and the one below, were copied from the What Happened? thread - S.]

Sageous:

What do you think about "Forced Falling Asleep", which is a technique where you try to quickly fall asleep and let go of consciousness, with the intention of immediately taking it back after about 10 seconds have passed? It's used to make yourself fall asleep faster.

I find during WILD attempts that I often reach a stage of clarity and acute awareness where sleep seems very far off. The awareness seems unshakable, like in the middle of a meditation session. I start interrupting my mantra with quick bouts of FFA in order to try to induce sleep, which tends to bring on the "noise."

I feel like maintaining awareness is not a problem for me, but it seems to coincide with staying firmly awake.

Do you have any opinions on this?

^^ I suppose I could summon an opinion about this, Bluremi!

In my opinion, I think that FFA's (I didn't know it had become an acronym-worthy term, BTW) are pretty much only possible with the help of powerful anesthesia or perhaps a good crack with a lead pipe -- neither of which I'd recommend you ever do to yourself. We are simply not wired to force ourselves to fall asleep.

I suppose an adept at meditation, or perhaps someone with incredibly strong willpower might be able to force an unnaturally speefy drop into sleep, but we mere mortals must live with at least a short wait as our minds and bodies work their ways into sleep mode. Narcoleptics might have success at FFA as well, though it would stem more from timing than technique, and I wouldn't wish narcolepsy on anyone (it is not a fair trade). Also, doing something extreme like keeping yourself awake for more than a day or two won't help either, because that kind of exhaustion is not terribly conducive to LD'ing. Indeed, I would see attempts to force yourself to fall asleep backfiring regularly, if only because you will be using more consciousness (focus) in order to force yourself to let go of consciousness.

So, in my opinion, you should probably question the sense or value of this technique.

But wait, there's more:

Let's say, however, that I'm totally wrong, and there is a way for us to let our consciousnesses go and force ourselves to sleep quickly and at will -- or perhaps I misunderstood you, and you were talking about some other sort of release of consciousness. Let's say FFA's are not a problem: Then what?

If we have allowed a full release of our self-awareness in the name of falling asleep, doesn't that mean we're asleep, period? Once you've started your sleep cycle, there is no internal way that I know of to bring consciousness back, barring a DILD later in the night -- which seems more than possible, given the mental prep you would have to put into this exercise. Once you're out, you're out; there is no mechanism I know of to return your self-awareness to a sleeping mind 10 seconds later, regardless of intention. This is especially true if you do a FFA right before an NREM period, where mundane concepts like "10 seconds" simply do not exist. I personally know of no way back.

And yes, I can see how trying a FFA in the middle of a WILD might bring on the noise, as you confuse your settling mind with new stimulus and focus that run at odds with what you've been doing so far (which is already at odds with the normal falling to sleep routine). After all wouldn't you would be trying to fall asleep while you are trying to stay awake while you are falling asleep? It's confusing just to write it down!

I suggest, Bluremi, that you take this technique with a grain of salt. It doesn't hurt to try it, of course, since we learn something from all these things. But at the same time you might try putting a little more focus on combining your strong awareness skills with some patience, and perhaps discover a way to get that awareness to coincide with your dreams as well.