Thread: A method (Interrupted Sleep Audio Method) for lucidity for those who can't get up to WBTB or newbies

Liked your dream snippet DH! If you haven't already, I am sure you will soon be having dreams where you are discussing lucidity enthusiastically with characters in the dream - totally unaware that it is in fact actually A DREAM! Those ones really hurt when you wake up! WHY didn't I click!

Sorry to be late getting back in touch, working all this weekend. The ICII (invis clock II) instructions do look kinda crazy. I am pretty sure the alarm shuts itself off after 20secs unless you deliberately activate the autosnooze. I don't use the alarm, instead I use the timer, its quicker for me as I just set it for 6hrs as I go to sleep, it countdowns, goes off and stays off. But if you are wanting to hit the REM zone you worked out the alarm might be easier. Once set the alarm goes off everyday at that time, until you erase it, or if you don't want to hear it (ie the vibe) then you have to switch the slider on the side to zero.

Teenagers eh?! I've got 2 little children (4+7) and my main problem is getting woken up too early....but won't be long I guess till the pendulum swings the other way and they're keeping me up at night!

I had a thought to run past everyone - it seems most/all the people on this thread are interested primarily in inducing LD's directly using vibration. My initial idea of the thread was really more about using the alarm as a way of silently waking me up on a regular basis and doing an intention technique - with the bonus that sometimes the vibe didn't wake me and got incorporated.

Would it be better to start a new thread - say 'Vibration Induced Lucid Dreaming' in the Lucid Aids bit of this part of the forum - that way other people who might be interested would pick up on it more easily and the discussion could be dedicated to that more directly? Even though I am doing the tech as described in my original post I am happy and keen to contribute to those wanting to use vibration as an EILD and have a bit of research to add if it helps, and so far great contributions from everyone else - Verre, Nfri, FryingMan (congrats on your wings man!), Starletdreamer and yourself DH - but anyone else reading the title of the original thread might be confused as to what we are discussing.

Unfort I've got to go to work right now, frustrating I have to work sat/sun every other week - DH if you want any more help with programming the device let me know, I can always PM you - cheers all - T

Hi Tlaloc!
I discovered you method a few days ago, I am going to give it a serious try (the one you are using - not the vibes alone) and I would appreciate it if you can describe in more detail some aspects of you setup.
Basically, I have already tried this once, but I had some difficulties: My main problem was the position of the earbud. Although I have a quite flat one, it's uncomfortable to sleep with my ear on it. So, whenever the vibration went off, I had to move my head in order to center my ear over it - and when I turned to the other side, it was even more difficult to reach. So, how do you deal with this? Is your earbud comfortable to have your ear on - and you never change position?
Also, in order to have the mp3 on-off button at my thumb, I had to stick it with tape to my fingers.
Right now I have ordered a custom-made wristband connected to a "fingerband" with an attached mp3 holder, but I would like to know your holding tips - and also which mp3 you are using (cause mine needs a firm press on the button for over 5 seconds to power on). Also, do you have the vibrating alarm and the mp3 in the same hand?
Thanks for taking the time to answer - and I will be sure to report my results here!

I was about to ask the same kind of question, and also was about to show you this methode SearcherTMR lol.
I neither didn't understand where exactly is the earplug. on the pillow?
I think my RemDreamer can act to wake me up when I am on REM, since I already use it with the beep sounds for DEILD purpose, but I can add this audio RC/audio suggestion when I am not trying to DEILD.
the question si how exactly is your set up.

Hi Kaan!
Yep, I knew we have a lot in common
Well, as I already said, I only tried this once, so I definitely need to fine-tune this. But I am pretty sure it's going to be a highly effective method. That's because :
1. The principle of multiple awakenings has already worked well for me - that's how I achieved my first lucids ever: I used the saltcube timer, and regardless of what everyone here thinks of Nick, this gave me my first lucids when nothing else had worked for many weeks. The problem, of course, was that it was quite annoying and resulted in sleep of very bad quality.
2. The idea of actively doing a RC with the mp3 after every awakening is a pretty interesting one, as I believe that will prevent getting used to and ignoring the vibrations. This allows very gentle vibration to be used and better sleep quality - less sleep disturbance.

About using the REM-dreamer, I wouldn't do it because the beeping sound is not as comfortable as the vibration and the point is to just be repeatedly awakened - not necessarily during REM sleep. But if you do this and have good results, i can follow!

About my setup, I used a vibrating cell phone (in a wrist band case) for WBTB awakening - as I always do. This produces a quite strong vibration. Then, I attached with tape on my right hand a vibrating watch (gentle vibration) such as I can easily snooze it, and set it to vibrate every 24 mins . On my left I attached the mp3 - with my thumb over the on-off button and the quite flat earpiece over the pillow- but under the pillow cover.
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Today I received the custom-made bands, so for my next try I will be having them like this:
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Also, I will use my custom-made, small, quite flat earpieces, normally in-ear and not on the pillow because of the issues I had with targeting:
image.jpg

So, that's how it will be, unless Tlaloc has a more interesting idea to use!

Hiya SearcherTMR and Kaan! Sorry for the late replies - I had kinda dropped off the grid.

SearcherTMR - your set up looks very good! I'd really like to hear how you're getting on...but to answer your questions.....I used VERY cheap (£1 shop jobbies) ear buds - small and cylindrical in shape. I tapped them together side to side to increase the volume and taped them to the surface of my pillow, but near the bottom of it. Over the top of them I put a quilted pillow protector and the pillow slip, so the wires just came out of the side. The buds were tapped near the bottom corner of the pillow and for most of the night I slept with my head in the middle of the pillow away from them. Then when I woke from the vibe going off in the morning I set my stuff up and moved my head either over or just to the side of where the buds were (into a position I felt was comfortable enough to return to sleep) at the same time I played the audio once to start the mental preparation (and as a RC) and also to ensure I set everything up ok and I'd centred myself over the buds. I then returned to sleep. I don't move around a lot during my sleep so I just stayed in that position, side sleeping, maybe adjusting my head slightly if the buds got too uncomfy.

The key thing (I felt) was the volume had to be loud enough - as if someone was talking in a normal but strong voice to me. Too quiet and I would fall asleep too quickly and not concentrate on the message. I did think about using a flatter bud - but felt that given the tech was so successful at inducing LD's I didn't really want to change anything - I also wondered if maybe alittle discomfort wasn't a bad thing as it might increase my awareness slightly and thus increase the chance of lucidity. Sometimes these things are funny like that - you try and improve something and it actually ends up solving one problem but creating another! Anyway I think the bits that might help you are that I didn't try and sleep over the buds the whole night, they were just enough off centred to my normal head position that I could avoid them before the wbtb but recentre myself over them after the wbtb.

Your wrist straps look good. I used the vibrating alarm in a sock I cut the toes off and turned inside out to form a slip and had on my wrist to wake me up for the initial wbtb then transferred to a similar sock I had on already on my ankle. I think I did this partly at out of habit (from doing day time RC's where wearing it on my ankle was effectively invisible if I had trousers on and so it became associated in this location with the vibe on ankle = RC) + I found that if I was half asleep and it went of I couldn't remove it - as it was too far on my ankle to pull off. I used to use a novadreamer years ago and despite best intentions would subconsciously remove it during the night due to discomfort. With the vibrating device on my ankle I couldn't do that in order to ignore it.

My mp3 device is a San Disc - it looks similar in size to yours - a small square. I can gear up the audio track and start it and I have to hold down the on/off button for 3-4 sec's to start/stop it. Its not ideal, I have to push down hard with my thumb over the button. I have it in my left hand (even though I am right handed, I think its more comfy as I sleep on my RHS). I have it on a wrist band which I pull over my palm. The San disc has a clip on the back, I clip it onto the wrist band which brings the button close to my thumb, that way when I wake from the vibe I don't have to move my thumb much.

This I think is key - not to have to move much at all, so return to sleep after the audio message/RC is very quick. Kaan, I had (have) a now very old Novadreamer, and I'd thought I'd use the RC button on the masks front as a RC whenever the vibe went off. I tried this but found moving my arm too much woke me up too much (and disturbed my partner), hence I tried the mp3 player - and 'by accident' if you like I thought I'd record a message as the RC, and the combo seemed to work very effectively in inducing lucidity (for me anyway).

Hope this helps! I'd be very interested to see if either of you (or anyone else) has found the tech (or elements of it) useful. Cheers! T

Hi Tlaloc!
Better late than never!
To tell you the truth I was already used to not getting responses around here on DV - jeffg for example disappeared just after claiming 100% lucidity rate with his setup and I needed his feedback so much for replicating his device...
Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised by your response yesterday, thanks for that!
About your setup, I see why I needed to make adjustments. It seems that after WBTB you stay almost still, so you easily center your head over the ear-buds and your wrist band stays on your palm - does not slip off. Perhaps this has to do with you not getting out of bed...
In my case, I change positions so many times that the only way to cope, was with in-ear buds - almost flat and not disturbing that I tape-on and special wrist and palm bands that stay in place no matters how much I move!
About my results now, to tell you the truth I haven't given it a proper try yet. I only tested it 3 times (the one before the wrist bands and 2 more) with no lucidity.
There are many reasons for this, most importantly I was ill most of this time - 4 days with fever and another 5 with back pain, so I was off-attempts. Apart from that, my WBTB involves going to the bathroom and makes me quite alert. So, first 2 attempts resulted in insomnia and only in the last one I was able to sleep and dream between the vibrations - again without lucidity. I was just awaken very time, played the audio and returned to sleep. I guess I was not sleeping deep enough.
I do plan to use this technique again - as well as other ones - and if I have any good results, I will be sure to report here!

One more trial last night, no results again.
I was simply awaken every time, played the audio file and went back to sleep. Seems it's not the method for me. Quite strange though, because the original method - the saltcube timer method - was quite effective and gave me my first lucids, although it was quite annoying and more disturbing that this one - mainly because it used loud beeping sounds instead of vibrations for awakening. Anyway, most likely I won't be using this anymore.
Btw Tlaloc, is it still giving good results for you?

Hiya Searcher! you wanted to know how I'd gone with the tech - well developed the tech in aug and had 12 ld's with it, then in sept I had 13, then in oct I did the tech for 2 weeks and had 6, so over that 10 week period I had a rate of around 3 LD's a week - and I was doing the tech around the same amount (2-3x week, so some nights no LD, some multiple).
In mid oct I stopped doing any active LD'ing tech. Whilst I found getting lucid to be a pretty profound experience I had a lot of other things on my plate and in having read a couple of comments at the time by other LDers I decided just to enjoy my non-LD's more. I had a couple more LD's without doing the tech after that and then faded back to my baseline of zero lucidity. Until I caught your comment, and a night or two later, my daughter woke me up in the night having wet her bed, I did a wbtb and did the tech returning to sleep and got lucid again - so nice to see it still worked.

I'm sorry it hasn't worked for you...and I was thinking about why....and why perhaps other people tech's often don't work well for other people.

Anyway heres my thoughts - a key part of this technique is where I say to myself 'keep looking for the vibe' in the audio loop (I think I described this above, the loop says ' this is a successful electronic reality check, rest and relax, and keep looking for the vibe'). The key bit is the [I]meaning[I] behind the phrase. I spent a week or two with the vibrating device on my ankle with it going off randomly during the day. When it went off I'd do a RC - checking the time on my watch, but I'd also look around and look for any inconsistencies/abnormalities in the environment. Because the vibe was going off relatively regularly during the day (say on a 45min loop) you would often start to get the feeling of when it might start to go off, at those points, before it went off I would start to get more alert, looking around, looking for abnormalities, doing reality checks in advance of it going off. Its important to note, that just doing this during the day never in itself made me lucid, but what it seems to have done is to have created a really strong association (or conditioning) and so when I say 'keep looking for the vibe' I know exactly what this means - it means be on high alert for abnormalities, oddities aka dreamsigns, and the vibe itself. The funny thing is - if I say something different like 'keep looking for the dream' or 'keep looking for the oddity' it feels far less effective. I seem to have made a VERY strong association with this particular phrase and its connotations.

Without having done this practice with the vibe device and the association of the phrase to that activity I would think the phrase itself would be much less effective and perhaps this is why it doesn't work for you. An analogy to this might be Pavlovs dogs. Pavlov got his dogs to salivate to a musical tone - this became a conditioned response. I could tell you to salivate when you hear a musical tone, and you could try but unless you have been conditioned to it I suspect it would have no effect. You would understand the theory, but wouldn't be able to produce the effect.

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of other successful LDers are essentially trying to transmit how they are succeeding to get lucid but that a lot of their success comes down to some kind of intentional response that has been developed through personal experience and is hard to transmit to others. In particular I'm thinking of MILD, which seems to never have the effect La Berge described for himself for others.

Anyway - the thing I would possibly suggest for my tech, is that you might be able to get the same feeling for the same phrase I use by practicing during daytime with the vibe - this practice like the training of pavlovs dogs, hopefully would condition you so that when you use the phrase it helps switch your brain more into a phase suitable for LD'ing if the underlying conditions are right (eg the increased alertness from a wbtb or miniwbtb).

hope this might be of use cheers T

Hi (Hiya) Tlaloc!
Wow! This is indeed working great for you!
Thank you for your ideas and suggestions. Yes, it's true that I didn't really understand the meaning of this phrase (although I used it in my recording...).
Now that you described the whole story, I see why it works great for you - it would be better though if you had included that part in the description
Unfortunately, for now I can't do your training, because my vibrating watch is malfunctioning - it has the possibility to give random vibes throughout the day, but this is the only function that is not working...
On the other hand, the Raduga technique gave excellent results for me, so I will resume my trials with that.
Anyway, thanks for this - and if I get stuck in the future, I might get back to give this another shot, with a new operating vibrating device

Impressive resulsts Tlaloc !
I should receive in a few days the latest version of the Rem-Dreamer pro with an audio recorder option directly integrated to the mask board, that my old RemDreamer doesn't have.

I definitely see a way of adapting your technique to this useful tool.
The "this is a successful reality check, rest and relax" could be a clever base for a recorded vocal message on my RemDreamer!

Hey guys - thanks for the replies! I've taken on board your point Searcher - and if its possible I'll try and update the initial post to do suggest the importance of doing some daytime practice prior to beginning the night time use of the vibe - I guess this is where having feedback from others is a really big asset.

Kaan - I had a question - can you get the REM Dreamer to present the audio cue BEFORE the flashes? I was chatting with another member about ways to improve incorporation of external stimuli (cues) into the dreamstate. If you could elevate your dreaming minds alertness prior to getting the light cue by playing a loudish tone or noise that might increase the likelihood of getting the lights incorporated - just a thought.
Best of luck to you both! - T

^^ Yep, I think that would be useful to someone trying this out - and you might have to contact an admin for this, but it can be done.

Indeed I answered but it's like my message has lost itself on the deepness of the web limbs, so I will write it again.
I received the new RD pro will unboxe it tomorrow, but I don't think it is possible to play the audio recorded message before the beeps or/and flashes.
Non the less I think it is possible manage to do it by using the TWC mode (Two Way Communication).
Contrary to the normal mode, the TWC will send 6 or 7 series of clues, with 30 seconds between each one, and an increasing intensity of the flashes/beeps/recorded audio messages.
So if I record 15 seconds of silence before saying my vocal message, since each set of flashes and message is repeated every 30 seconds, the 15 seconds delay will do what you suggest: a flash or/and beep will be preceded by the vocal message.
I can record a message telling to myself to be aware of the next flash/beep serie.

The second advantage of the TWC mode is that I can stop the mask from the dream world by doing a CODE with my eyes, so if I am lucid during the process, I can stop the clues and prevent the mask from waking me up.

When I am not trying to use my RD to have a WILD/DEILD, I can use it to test your technique.

Hi guys.
How things go for you?

After some good results using my new RemDreamer and LD supplements, I had got some winter holidays, and had another couple of good results, but the way this new RD and his barely comfortable flat speaker gives me LD is a little bit different from the way my old RD was doing it.
I finished by stopping my LD attempts and losing my interest for LD (but I will come back to it)

Basically I have been choosing to go for WILD/DEILD and to give the DILD techniques up for several months.
With supplements + my old RemDreamer + WILD or Raduga's style DEILD I had been having very solid success rate.
The old RD was a technological help for DEILD, but the way I use the new RD makes me feel I am returning to some kind of DILD results, and that is not what I want, cause I want to learn to WILD/DEILD and to reach a skill that gives me LD virtually at will, by trying it, and not by doing invasive stuffs during the day time (really checks, self suggestions, and all the stuffs that doesn't really work for me anymore).

Anyway, the reason why I post here today is that I just ordered a programmable vibrating alarm that I will use for my WILD/DEILD attempts and that you guys could use for the Tlaloc's technique.

The alarm is called Gymboss MiniMAX

*Removed link*

You can wear it near you foot, if you buy the scratch, it can beep or vibrate (or both) during 1 , 2 , 5 or 9 seconds and it stops by itself.
you can program a succession of different delays, until 25 different delays, and until 99 total delays in a row.
the delay between two alarms is from 2 seconds to 99 minutes.

So you can program for example 40min-27min-10min-18min-29min,whatever, and so on, and save this setting in one of the available memories.

I will use it for WILD to replace any mental anchor, the 1 sec vibrating alarm will tell me that 10 min have passed (for example) and will remind me to stay focus, then the following alarm will tell me that 15 more minutes have passed, and so on.

I will also use it for DEILD to wake me up at different times after a WBTB and to try a DEILD.

Since you can customize your delays series, you can simulate a random alarm to prevent the brain from anticipating the alarm as it can do when the same delay is repeated again and again.

I'll tell you my results when I receive it.

I am sure that this cheap tool can help for the technique of this thread as well

Glad to see activity in this thread! I haven't updated here in a while either.

The Gymboss looks like a useful timer, and maybe a bit less clunky than the MotivAider. I've been continuing to use the latter from time to time, and although I really like the functionality, I still don't understand why it needs to be so large! I was able to find a couple "wrist wallets" big enough to hold it, so now I'm using these to strap it to my arm.

I've had occasional successes with it lately (see DJ entries of March 3, February 19 & 13 of this year for detailed descriptions), though mostly these days I've been using it as a back-up method. On the occasions that it has worked, it seems to have served as a trigger from which to DEILD—even from a false awakening, in one case. I'm starting to really like the ease of the DEILD method: it may not always work (does anything?) but it requires much less of a time investment than WILD and you can get multiple shots at it each night. Of course you can DEILD successfully without a device, but the trigger can serve as a great reminder of the intention.

Daywork and conditioning like Tlaloc describes would probably boost this tech as well, though I feel like I'd want something more discreet than the MotivAider if I'm going to wear it in public.........hmmm........ it just occurred to me that I've got a Jawbone UP attached my wrist right now, and it's possible that the "Idle Alert" function could be used for daytime conditioning or even as an actual EILD prompt while I'm in sleeping. Worth a try!

Hi there.

What's up? tlaloc : did you continue to use this technique?

I was doing some research on the forum about the effects of sleep interruptions on the sleep pattern for (for WILD purpose) and this brought me back to this thread.

I have been trying to improve my WILD and DEILD skill for a while now, by using all sort of help : LD supplements (about 90% success rate, but this doesn't help me to lean how to WILD/DEILD naturally), REM-Dreamer pro (with or without recorded audio message), REM-Dreamer + Gymboss (vibrating alarm) and Gymboss only.
I tried to WILD from N-REM sleep WBTB (still working on this following sageous's advices), and from REM sleep WBTB (using the Dream Alarm of my REM-Dreamer).

Up to now, I only have got success with the LD supplements, but still waiting for any positive results on my WILD and DEILD attempts without supplements.
Recently I stopped my experiments on REM interruption based WILD attempts (so I stopped to use the REM-Dreamer) but started to use my Gymboss as a reminder while I try to cross consciously the N-REM sleep.
my attempts with the gymboss are noted in this thread
But sumer holidays will interrupt those experiments as I will have to sleep every days with my Girlfriend.

Anyway, I read this whole thread again and I think I better understood the important points of this technique this time.
I never really tried it the way it was supposed to work but as I now have the vibrating alarm+ a flat speaker (from the REM-Dreamer pro) that I can attach to the RD mask to keep it close to my hear + a skandisk mp3 player , I suppose that I could give it some more serious tries during holidays.

The only stuff that will be different is that I have to attach the mp3 player to the front side of the REM-Dreamer mask (without the RD device inside) because I move very much during the night and the wire that links the MP3 to the flat speaker is about 20cm long (less than 10 inches).
So as the flat speaker AND the MP3 player will be attached to the floppy sleep mask (without the RD device) I will have to move my hand near my face to start the mp3 message.
The vibrating alarm will be attached to my socket.

I well understood that this technique is supposed to bring lucidity through DILD (mainly) , and that the Day training (Associate the RC to the vibrating alarm during the day) is a key point so that the "vibe" must act as a mind conditioning of awareness.

The idea that the audio message will prevent a tolerance issue sounds good.
as this night I sleep alone, I will give it a first try.
Edit: I won't, I let my gymboss at my GF's home..

This is the config I will use:


you can clearly see the sleep mask (without the RD inside) + the mp3 player + the flat speaker and his wire.
As the flat speaker is pressed against the hair-free skin under/behind my left ear, I can ear it loud even with the earplugs I use to sleep, because of the bone vibrations, without feeling any pain in the case I sleep in my left side, which is not the case if I put it just against my ear.

Each time I will be awoken by the vibrating alarm, I just will have to turn the mp3 player ON by briefly pushing the Power button , wait for about 5 seconds, and press the play button, listen carefully to the message, and that's it (I checked that the mp3 player automatically turns off before the next vibrating alarm goes off 24 min later, so I don't have to turn it off manually which is good cause to do this I should have had to press the power button for several seconds contrary to the power ON process.)

I have realy enjoyed this thread - realy glad I found it. I have got the Gymboss Minimax as you explained in the thread you made Kaan and been using during the day randomly and doing RC and awarenessess when it goes off havnt done anything at night yet as I had a hunch it was best to get used to it as a cue during the day

I am not very good at setting up tech etc like you have and Tlaloc but will try to get an MP3 player to connect to a wrist band so I can press the voice cue with hardly any movement

Thanks everyone

Hi.
As I said, this night I didn't have my Gymboss but I wanted to give a try, at least to see how I feel with the audio message.
So I fixed the broken bracelet of a former vibrating watch I had got and used it in spite of the Gymboss.

(when I will have back my Gymboss, this vibrating watch will be what firstly wakes me up at about h+6 after bed time, this way, my Gymboss will already be attached to my socket, ready to be triggered and will be dedicated to the short vibrations every 24 min.
So when my vibrating watch wakes me up, I will only have to put my sleeping mask with the mp3 player on it, and to trigger the Gymboss.)
.
Lets return to my vibrating watch:
I programmed a vibrating alarm to firstly wake me up and used a timer that I programmed for a 24 min interval.
the timer automatically starts again his countdown when it reaches 0.
The issue with this vibrating watch is that the vibration associated with each time up lasts for about 10 seconds, which is way too long.

Ideally, I think the vibration should last just enough to have 50% chance to wake you up, and 50% chance to produce a false awakening.
It will be more easy to figure it out with the Gymboss.

Anyway, I had got some false triggers (felt vibrations when the watch wasn't going off), and heard the sound of a photograph device , both were coming from a false awakening.
Unfortunately, because this long vibration woke me up too much each time, I ended the experiment after few occurrences.

Anyway, these few occurrences were enough to give me a first preview of how this technique feels like (and especially how my way of doing it feels like).

The audio listening was very pleasant !
Several times, I felt like triggering it even when the vibrating watch was not going off, which is a good thing.
however I think I now understand why tlaloc attached the player to his hand: sometimes when I had to play the mp3, I would have appreciated to do it without moving at all, cause in this state of mind and numbness, moving the hand to the my face (where the mp3 player was) was not as easy as it sounds like.
I felt that it woke me up too much.

I also noticed when I was changing my sleeping position just after I felt the vibration and just before triggering the mp3.
I guess that if I train myself to notice it and then to progressively prevent me from moving before I'm about to do it, it will improve the technique efficiency.

I noticed a very strong tendency to anticipate (and wait for) the vibration and also to wonder what time is it and how much time it must left before the next vibration.

I think that h+6 may be reduced a bit as I was having a very strong dream before that delay.

My real first tries (with the gymboss) will start when I won't be sleeping alone in my bed. this first preview makes me think that this is not ideal and that it can easily ruin my sleep but I will try to figure out.

I wont be able to post my results before a certain amount of time, but I'll do it as soon as possible.


Edit:
I just remembered that I heard once a message very different from the one I recorded on the mp3 player.
Those FA hallucinations are a pretty good sign.

Hi Kaan,
I had a very heavy schedule recently and no time for LD.
But during the next month I will be back and going again - and with a few new ideas to test (ultrasonic induction of LD).
So, the last 3 days I have started Tlaloc's daytime training with vibes during the day and I will soon start practicing his technique again - with minor deviations - and report the results.
I wish you good luck with your setup and yes, I agree that having to move your hand to your head is too much of a movement during the night...

Hi SearcherTMR.
your new ideas are hitting my curiosity.
Don't hesitate to tell me more about this by PM.

I'm out of context to give good night time tries.
Once my girlfriend saw me in the middle of the night with my sleeping mask, manipulating my mp3 player but I indeed I slept without it and never put this mask, so at least it gave her a false awakening!
I told her to do a RC next time.

On my side I continue to practice RC and alert observations each time my Gymboss triggers its vibrating alarms during the day, but don't give much effort on the night technique because of various reasons : for example this night my vibrating watch fell because the bracelet is still broken and my fixing was weak.
I got few FA last night and this night, even if I didn't trigger the gymboss, I dreamed about a conversation involving 2 Lucid Dreamers and I, discussing about some LD powers.
serious things will probably start when I will sleep alone, in few weeks, but for now the only thing I am sure to work on is the daytime conditioning with my Gymboss vibrating every 24 min during the day.
my girlfriend told me that sometimes, during the night, my Gymboss was vibrating (during 2 seconds) but I was still sleeping.
So my new setting is a 2 sets of 2 seconds of vibrations separated by 1 second of nothing.
this every 24 min.

Hi Kaan,
Well, this week I am still very busy - I have just started the daytime training (plus dream journaling) in order to properly test Tlaloc's techinque after one-two weeks when I will be on vacation.
I will PM you next week about UILD when I will have time for writing, as it is a big story...
Good luck with your tests - to both of you!

@ searcherTMR : take you time bro


The daytime conditioning (Yesterday I did a RC every 24 min during the whole day) is starting to kick in.
This night, after 3 or 4 hours of sleep I did a WBTB, took melatonine, read a book and went back to bed when I was about to fall asleep.
My last thought was something like "next time I dream I want to realize I am dreaming", mentally pronounced only once.
For once this simple auto suggestion worked.
I had a LD but I only remember the very beginning as I didn't note it.
I was mainly observing how my hands were realistic and very detailed.
I noticed that the "4" I can usually read in my own right hand wasn't there.
Then I decided to count my fingers and their number was different each time I counted them, until some fingers were even not finished.
I don't remember the following and the dream, I think I flew for a while and really enjoyed it but I lost this memories.

Anyway, this happened before I start the gymboss and before I put the sleeping mask with the mp3 player.
when I did start the gymboss + mp3 technique, I felt very well that moving the arm to play the audio message was sometimes ruining the possibility to return directly to the dream.
A way of triggering the audio without moving at all (I mean really not moving) would be perfect.

In the other hand, as I have to move my hand to the front of my face (where the mp3 player is) each time I feel the Vibe, I can notice when it is easy to do it, and when it involves a strong effort.
This could be a way to detect some WILD/DEILD opportunities... I don't know.
I mean... when I really feel like not moving at all, maybe I could try a WILD instead of playing the audio because it means my body is very relaxed and about to fall back to sleep very fast.
In the worst case, I miss an attempt and will be awoken 24 min later.

By the way, the vibration mode : 2 sec ON, 1 sec OFF, 2 sec ON feels very good.

Hey Kaan congrats on the' last thought ' LD
Hi SearcherTMR - I am also interested in your methods - will you let us know what ur up to ( UILD )

Kaan - My boy friend is getting me an mp3 /iPod for me to engage more in this method - but asks me to ask you which one would you recommend - thanks

I haven't worked out what you mean with the Gymboss buzz timings when you say - the vibration mode : 2 sec ON, 1 sec OFF, 2 sec ON feels very good ;

Do you mean there is a way to make it vibrate twice at the specifically timed intervals? So far I am having it buzz at random times during the day for 1 sec - Do you mean you have it buzz for a 2 sec then 1 sec off then 2 sec on at intervals during the day? Can you explain exactly what you are doing here and why - cheers

Originally Posted by Patience108

Hey Kaan congrats on the' last thought ' LD
Hi SearcherTMR - I am also interested in your methods - will you let us know what ur up to ( UILD )

Kaan - My boy friend is getting me an mp3 /iPod for me to engage more in this method - but asks me to ask you which one would you recommend - thanks

I haven't worked out what you mean with the Gymboss buzz timings when you say - the vibration mode : 2 sec ON, 1 sec OFF, 2 sec ON feels very good ;

Do you mean there is a way to make it vibrate twice at the specifically timed intervals? So far I am having it buzz at random times during the day for 1 sec - Do you mean you have it buzz for a 2 sec then 1 sec off then 2 sec on at intervals during the day? Can you explain exactly what you are doing here and why - cheers

About the mp3 player, I don't know what to suggest, you want to use something that can trigger the recorded message in the simplest way.
I use a scandisk, I dunno which modele, I have to press the Power button, then count from 1 to 5 in my head and press the play button.
you don't want to have something that will be too complicated to manipulate.

"Do you mean you have it buzz for a 2 sec then 1 sec off then 2 sec on at intervals during the day?"

yes, every 24 min, during the day, and during the night after about 6 hrs of sleep.

" Can you explain exactly what you are doing here and why "

why? :
because one only vibration of 2 seconds is too much ignored when I sleep/dream.
a 5 seconds vibration is too unpleasant.
But 2 vibrations of 2 seconds separated by 1 second "off" seams OK.

How?
The gymboss has 4 different modes:
1 int
2 int
3+int
multi

for the 2 on 1 off 2 on every 24 minutes, I use the "2 int" mode

the first interval is 24 min
the second interval is 3 seconds
the whole thing is repeated about 10 times
the vibe mode is chosen and it is set to 2 seconds

this way you'll have "2 seconds ON, 1 second Off, 2 seconds ON" every 24 min for 10 sets.

I saved this setting in one of the 5 memories of the "2 int" mode.

I use the same sating during the day for my RC.