Thread: A Unifying Theory of Dream Control

Sageous, and anyone else who might care, I think you'd be interested to know I worked with some ideas you helped inspire recently and managed to put together and successfully test a method for achieving total control in every LD a few nights ago. I'm gonna leave out the details of the method since I doubt there's anyone here besides maybe Mario who'd understand the process, and fewer still who'd even benefit from that knowledge.

Just wanted to say thanks, is all.

Originally Posted by Mario92

The light! I see it! Oh my god the sense. It's making sense everywhere!

XP

We should really continuing working on that other project. Do you know when Wolven is typically on?

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

We should really continuing working on that other project. Do you know when Wolven is typically on?

He's usually in chat around early morning sort of time.

OMG All the puzzle peices just fell into place for me. I had already read your tutorial on archetypal control and some of the linked threads so I already understood how it all works but after rereading it all together and think about it it all makes sense now. The last puzzle peice was what you said about attention. Expectation alone wont always do it. Its not until you focus your attention on the expectation and none of the other crap thats holding you back does it become beleif. Then you are in control.

Hmm. I read this a while back. But I'm wondering. Would this work well for dream incubation?
To make sure my dream is focused on one thing? Thoughts? If it could, could you explain how please? I really need to know haha.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Sageous, and anyone else who might care, I think you'd be interested to know I worked with some ideas you helped inspire recently and managed to put together and successfully test a method for achieving total control in every LD a few nights ago. I'm gonna leave out the details of the method since I doubt there's anyone here besides maybe Mario who'd understand the process, and fewer still who'd even benefit from that knowledge.

That's great news, Mzzkc, nice to know I helped. Sad to hear though that your new method is beyond my comprehension or use; not quite sure how/why you believe that. Maybe you could post it anyway, and let us decide for ourselves whether it is simply too far above our tiny minds to understand?

Just read through all of the links (which are a fantastic must read source of food for thought), and the discussion of self-awareness vs expectation (Schema). You have inspired me, thank you! Keep up the good reads guys, people do read it!

Originally Posted by Sageous

That's great news, Mzzkc, nice to know I helped. Sad to hear though that your new method is beyond my comprehension or use; not quite sure how/why you believe that. Maybe you could post it anyway, and let us decide for ourselves whether it is simply too far above our tiny minds to understand?

The method itself is theoretically usable by anyone, but actually knowing how it works won't be beneficial to them unless they're already extremely good at manipulating schema. I'll get around to posting it one of these days, but you're already well acquainted with the high level concept, even if you don't want to accept the mechanics of it. PM me if you'd like to have a further discussion on the matter or want to know exactly how the method works. But if our previous conversation is any indicator, I'm not sure you'll like what I have to say.

Originally Posted by NightSpy2

Hmm. I read this a while back. But I'm wondering. Would this work well for dream incubation?
To make sure my dream is focused on one thing? Thoughts? If it could, could you explain how please? I really need to know haha.

Hard to say. A good tool I've found for general purpose dream incubation is strong intent, which itself is a way of focusing attention and expectation, so I guess you could say it has some bearing on that, but that might be stretching things a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

The method itself is theoretically usable by anyone, but actually knowing how it works won't be beneficial to them unless they're already extremely good at manipulating schema. I'll get around to posting it one of these days, but you're already well acquainted with the high level concept, even if you don't want to accept the mechanics of it. PM me if you'd like to have a further discussion on the matter or want to know exactly how the method works. But if our previous conversation is any indicator, I'm not sure you'll like what I have to say.

So Mzzkc, do you believe in fate? Luck? Me neither, but I'll tell you this: I had just finished a long indignant post excoriating you for continuing to make unfair assumptions about my (and other readers here) intelligence and apparent prejudice toward terms like schema manipulation. But then I accidentally deleted the whole thing, and for once I didn't release a primal scream afterward.

Why? Because the deletion was a good thing. Because I'm sure that when you're ready to share this new method of dream control, you will. It's not my problem if you feel we're not ready (or willing) for it yet.

That said, here's why I got a bit pissed before that: I am forever curious about anything new, and, after getting acquainted with your obvious knowledge -- and curiosity -- I actually hoped you might have something of value that maybe I hadn't seen before. That's why I visit this forum. This is not rocket science we're doing here -- it may be something far more complex, and revolutionary. To decide for others that a new method is above them is frankly unfair, and does a lot to slow up the process of making LD's commonplace. But in the end that's your call, not mine. Shame on me for assuming otherwise.

I will admit that I got a bit snide in my response above; bygones, I suppose. However, note that I never asked about the mechanics, just the method. I only wanted to know what you had discovered, to compare it with methods I thought I had discovered as well, back during the years I still cared about things like schema manipulation.

So maybe someday we'll see that method...

Originally Posted by Sageous

So Mzzkc, do you believe in fate? Luck? Me neither, but I'll tell you this: I had just finished a long indignant post excoriating you for continuing to make unfair assumptions about my (and other readers here) intelligence and apparent prejudice toward terms like schema manipulation. But then I accidentally deleted the whole thing, and for once I didn't release a primal scream afterward.

I'm not making assumptions about people's intelligence, just their current knowledge. The only reason I thought Mario could understand it above anyone else is because I've worked with him 1-on-1 for a good bit of time now dealing with the topics and exercises that led to the conception of this "new" method. I use new loosely because really it's just an application of pre-established ideas.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Why? Because the deletion was a good thing. Because I'm sure that when you're ready to share this new method of dream control, you will. It's not my problem if you feel we're not ready (or willing) for it yet.

I have every intention of sharing it, but this isn't the place to do it. It requires its own thread and its own presentation, as the material needs to be taught properly to be effective.

Originally Posted by Sageous

That said, here's why I got a bit pissed before that: I am forever curious about anything new, and, after getting acquainted with your obvious knowledge -- and curiosity -- I actually hoped you might have something of value that maybe I hadn't seen before. That's why I visit this forum. This is not rocket science we're doing here -- it may be something far more complex, and revolutionary. To decide for others that a new method is above them is frankly unfair, and does a lot to slow up the process of making LD's commonplace. But in the end that's your call, not mine. Shame on me for assuming otherwise.

I will admit that I got a bit snide in my response above; bygones, I suppose. However, note that I never asked about the mechanics, just the method. I only wanted to know what you had discovered, to compare it with methods I thought I had discovered as well, back during the years I still cared about things like schema manipulation.

So maybe someday we'll see that method...

You can rest assured, the stuff I figured out isn't likely anything that will seem new to you. In fact, you'll probably accuse me of stealing or something, especially if all you see is the thread I plan to make, since that thread won't deal with the mechanics of the technique (which are vastly more interesting in my opinion, but, again, not beneficial knowledge [seriously shoot me a PM if you want to know the method and how it works, I'm more than willing to share all that, but not in the public eye just yet]).

Edit: As an aside, I do want you to know, Sageous, that despite what the appearances may be, I do like you and find you and your ideas very interesting. Even if some of our views seem diametrically opposed, I'm sure we'll be able to learn from each other if we keep an open mind about things. Hell, you've already helped me immensely in some regards that go beyond LDing. I'm sure there're some things I could help you with in that respect, but I feel I'd need a better medium than this forum to share what I've learned.

expectation and focus. Interesting.I never really thought about this concept. I may think about it for a few days before I really can respond

I've been reading all this material and letting it roll around in my brain for a couple of days, and it makes sense to me. I haven't had a lucid that past few days, but as I look back on my non-lucids, I can see schemas and focus at work.

Example: In my dream last night I am in an airport. I pick up a cup from off of the ground and then sit down somewhere else w/ the cup in front of me. I am focusing on the cup and suddenly people walking by are throwing change in it. I look up and out of nowhere from all different directions all these New Orleans gutter punks are walking towards me, then sit down next to me. One breaks out a guitar, one starts passing a bottle of whiskey around...

Just by focusing on a cup on the ground, my subconscious built a whole "your a homeless kid in New Orleans" scenario even though it had nothing to with my location.

Originally Posted by NightSpy2

Hmm. I read this a while back. But I'm wondering. Would this work well for dream incubation?
To make sure my dream is focused on one thing? Thoughts? If it could, could you explain how please? I really need to know haha.

It certainly could. Dream control is applicable both to dreams and waking life, so it should also apply to the transition between the two. ALthough making sure your dream is only focused on one thing is a bit of a stretch. Every archetype is connected to possibly thousands of other archetypes, creating a humongous maze in which it's very easy and likely to take a wrong turn.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

I have every intention of sharing it, but this isn't the place to do it. It requires its own thread and its own presentation, as the material needs to be taught properly to be effective.

Well I certainly want to hear about it. I've got that Nature of Dream control sub forum in the user forums you're welcome to use. I certainly haven't done much with it yet.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I've got that Nature of Dream control sub forum in the user forums you're welcome to use. I certainly haven't done much with it yet.

Maybe it would be a better time when all the hacking fiasco is cleared up but I would really like to see that control subforum up and running

While I may not be a natural lucid dreamer I do find myself a sort of "natural" at dream control itself. I've never had anything I couldn't do in a dream. If I wanted to do it, I simply did it. Around the 20 LD mark or so I noticed that all I did was expect something and it would happen. After reading your post I also realize that I naturally had a focus on whatever I was thinking about, which is what I would be expecting. For example, if I wanted to make a fire ball I would expect fire to appear in my hand, and at the same time I would naturally visualize what fire looks like and how it feels.

I've always tell people to expect it and it will happen. Now I realize why many of them reported that it did not work; They were not focusing on it. I never really considered that there was more to it than just expecting it and imagining how it is perceived by the senses, but you have to focus as well. Thanks for sharing this

Before I give my reaction to the underlying thesis in your post "Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention." I'd like to explain a few things about myself, first.

I'm not a very active dream views goer, I wander in from time to time and I enjoy seeing what others do. I am not consciously focused at least not recently on the ideas, the techniques, or the theories on a regular basis. I am curious about what others do, in fact, but I have developed my own technique far before I ever found dreamviews. Technically, probably before dreamviews existed. The one time in my life I consciously made the willed effort to start lucidly dream and control those dreams I was young and having nightmares.. I just had the simple wish to make those nightmares stop. I was probably ~10-12 years old. I was moderately successful.. I did not have the benefit of any guidance but managed to first shift my conscious desires into unconscious desires.. meaning my conscious desire to become aware of, and exert control over my dreams gradually become more successful as I spent time before bed focusing on that one wish. I've never really expressed or thought about 'how' the things happen. Once I gained enough control to consistently end and shift my nightmares, I stopped consciously focusing on these aspects of dreaming. My unconscious mind continued to practice and develop lucidity and dream control, though. Now, lucidity and control simply occur at night. Sometimes I remember it. I can remember various stages of dream control.. the awkward control of fighting against expectations, preventative control .. the struggle of focusing on the wish for something to NOT happen, and learning from these naive attempts that focusing on the things I am trying to avoid ultimately fails because my mind is reinforcing the bad instead of constructing something good. Now a days, and it's been many years of practice, I do not try to control something, I just do. I don't seek out lucidity or control, it happens because my unconscious mind enjoys it.

As a relative outsider that nonetheless does use dream control, what you are saying sounds very accurate to me, and although I would not have thought to express it how you have, it even seems like it should be quite obvious.

I would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on the subject, as well. I think you are onto something and if this is not a well understood idea then it certainly deserves some more discussion.

I did not have trouble understanding your post so far, although I did not yet read the links. Could I trouble you or someone else that has read them to summarize them? I think this post would receive more attention if that were done.

Brain hurts a little but im sure this bit of focused reading should help me a little.

Response time. XP

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

expectation and focus. Interesting.I never really thought about this concept. I may think about it for a few days before I really can respond

Looking forward to your thoughts when you get the chance to share them.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Well I certainly want to hear about it. I've got that Nature of Dream control sub forum in the user forums you're welcome to use. I certainly haven't done much with it yet.

I think I posted the thread recently.

Originally Posted by lily

Before I give my reaction to the underlying thesis in your post "Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention." I'd like to explain a few things about myself, first.

I'm not a very active dream views goer, I wander in from time to time and I enjoy seeing what others do. I am not consciously focused at least not recently on the ideas, the techniques, or the theories on a regular basis. I am curious about what others do, in fact, but I have developed my own technique far before I ever found dreamviews. Technically, probably before dreamviews existed. The one time in my life I consciously made the willed effort to start lucidly dream and control those dreams I was young and having nightmares.. I just had the simple wish to make those nightmares stop. I was probably ~10-12 years old. I was moderately successful.. I did not have the benefit of any guidance but managed to first shift my conscious desires into unconscious desires.. meaning my conscious desire to become aware of, and exert control over my dreams gradually become more successful as I spent time before bed focusing on that one wish. I've never really expressed or thought about 'how' the things happen. Once I gained enough control to consistently end and shift my nightmares, I stopped consciously focusing on these aspects of dreaming. My unconscious mind continued to practice and develop lucidity and dream control, though. Now, lucidity and control simply occur at night. Sometimes I remember it. I can remember various stages of dream control.. the awkward control of fighting against expectations, preventative control .. the struggle of focusing on the wish for something to NOT happen, and learning from these naive attempts that focusing on the things I am trying to avoid ultimately fails because my mind is reinforcing the bad instead of constructing something good. Now a days, and it's been many years of practice, I do not try to control something, I just do. I don't seek out lucidity or control, it happens because my unconscious mind enjoys it.

As a relative outsider that nonetheless does use dream control, what you are saying sounds very accurate to me, and although I would not have thought to express it how you have, it even seems like it should be quite obvious.

I would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on the subject, as well. I think you are onto something and if this is not a well understood idea then it certainly deserves some more discussion.

I did not have trouble understanding your post so far, although I did not yet read the links. Could I trouble you or someone else that has read them to summarize them? I think this post would receive more attention if that were done.

Thanks for taking the time to post this. It's always enlightening to hear experiences from those who are self-taught. I don't know what you'd like to hear about specifically. This little thesis, which (I agree) should be apparent to anyone with introspection skills and a good number of LDs under their belt, is just the tip of a rather large iceberg, so it's difficult for me to delve down without a known direction.

Also, I like your idea of having a synopsis for each of the links. I think I'll work on update to this guide that includes that. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Oceanboy

Brain hurts a little but im sure this bit of focused reading should help me a little.

Haha, I hope so.