Thread: Who or what should we blame for the lack of lucidity ?

Interesting discussion, Steph and Sageous!
Let me try to contribute to the OP, bringing in thoughts from two expert LDers: Daniel Love and Robert Waggoner.

- Daniel Love asks: If we do the same technique at the same moment of the night on different days, why it works sometimes, and does not work others? He says the answer is Neuro-chemistry. He says that usually we do not take it into account and therefore our results are not consistent because we miss an important factor (He calls Psychology, Timing, and Neuro-chemistry the three pillars of lucidity)

- I read an article from Robert Waggoner about how to become an ultra-frequent LDer. He said from interviews he got to this point: One ultra-frequent LDer (Lucidous?) keeps asking herself "What was just I doing?", other keeps mapping his sorroundings and asking "Where I am?" (Billybob's tutorial on dream yoga, anyone?), and Robert thinks most naturals got into the habit of asking at all times if they were safe from nightmares. So according to him the key is the Lucid Mindset, asking constantly through the day a "Critical Question".

So going back to the OP, what is it? Brain chemistry? Lack of awareness?

PS: BTW, Daniel Love acknowledges also that those three pillars are so much related. Sometimes neuro-chemistry is the result of our psychology or emotions, and sometimes it's the other way around. Also our chemistry at the different sleep cycles depends of the time of the night or the hours we've been sleeping.

I have a long answer in the pipeline - just as a start to present - quite stunning - numbers.
5-10 % is an extremely conservative estimate - from MelSchaedlich`s paper:

Schredl and Erlacher (2011) reported that 51% of the par-
ticipants in a representative German population sample
(N=937) had a lucid dream at least once, while 20% were
frequent lucid dreamers with at least one lucid dream per
month (cf. Snyder & Gackenbach, 1988).

Link: Applications of lucid dreams: An online study | Schädlich | International Journal of Dream Research

There is a study with 80 % as well - among psychology students - who naturally are more interested than a representative sample.
Got to check - but I really think 5-10 % was the lowest percentage ever counted with strictest criteria somewhere - and that is why it got mentioned in the documentary.

That there is so much incidence and interest and research done in Germany - "hard" science and psychology both - speaks for a dreaming culture enabling this - and so do my experiences.

Once more - I have found 6 people who clearly remember, having noticed that they are dreaming and that they can do what they want* as children.
That is lucidity in my eyes - no discussion - I had it myself - there is a thread next door on childhood LDers - might link up later.
And again - I did not jump out of the kitchen window irl - I knew very well, what was a dream, and what not!!

*Some to a higher degree than others - but one said, he could control all other DCs like puppets and build up whole worlds.
He did not lie - he got going and going and was very excited and rapt to hear from me it has a name and can be taken up once more.

Here a perfect argument against it having to get newly wired by extensive learning: There are people, who get their first LD only after reading about it.
Just came across such a post - and have read it more often before.
I do not believe, they are lying - just having easy access to the in my view natural ability.

Another thing - these days - most everybody - esp. the working part - has a not optimal sleeping schedule - not enough mostly.
So there we have something playing against more people LDing, which is rather indisputable.

If it were fostered and promoted and recognized in the first place - and systematically in children - we would be at over 80 % practitioners - my hypothesis.

If it were fostered and promoted and recognized in the first place - and systematically in children - we would be at over 80 % practitioners - my hypothesis

Yes, it would be very important that children could keep their natural abilities. LDing could be promoted on school activities, like asking children to visit some place in their dreams and then ask them to write a text or draw something. I have felt very humble listening to some kids's LDs, and one immediately learned to LD without any technique, ahh he even told me he doesn't know what to do, because he was lucid a like an hour. When i see him he always has some interesting stuff to say, including advanced dream control techs, like time dilation, stability...

Originally Posted by StephL

I have a long answer in the pipeline - just as a start to present - quite stunning - numbers.
5-10 % is an extremely conservative estimate - from MelSchaedlich`s paper:

Wow. Okay. At the risk of writing what I don't like to read: That statistic flies in the face of pretty much all of my life experience. I've met many thousands of people in my life and, aside from those LD'ers I intentionally sought out (like here), I have met no more than a small handful of people who have had LD's, much less practice them consistently... and all that I've read and heard from other LD'ers over the years confirms that they are almost always as alone in their practice as I. And yet, statistically, I should have met not several, but hundreds of consistent LD'ers in my lifetime. At even 10%, much less 20%, the subject ought to come up occasionally at, say, parties. Yet it never has (and whenever I brought it up I was consistently met with blank stares). Germany is either a very special place, or I have been living in a very large lucid-free bubble all my life!

Or, perhaps my definition of lucid dreaming -- being in a dream with your waking-life self-awareness intact -- does not match the growing norms? That could be. Perhaps LD'ing does include things like dreaming that you are lucid, and a child's perception of a dream as just another reality. It may be time for me to retire, huh, and keep my antiquated ideas about LD'ing to myself?

I have met one person that LDs outside of DV, I think he is on the edge of consistent too. I have talked to like 40 people about LDing, and he was the only one that knew of it. How many people do you know that LD steph? Because like sageous, I dont meet many LDers. If 1/5 were LDers I would have met more. I mean, look at the amount of people on this site, the biggest LDing forum online. Compare to the biggest forum of anything else. Take guns or anything like that, and I think that less than 1/5 is a gun lover.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

I have met one person that LDs outside of DV, I think he is on the edge of consistent too. I have talked to like 40 people about LDing, and he was the only one that knew of it. How many people do you know that LD steph? Because like sageous, I dont meet many LDers. If 1/5 were LDers I would have met more. I mean, look at the amount of people on this site, the biggest LDing forum online. Compare to the biggest forum of anything else. Take guns or anything like that, and I think that less than 1/5 is a gun lover.

I agree, I honestly almost think it's a bit annoying when dream researchers throw out unrealistic numbers like "only 17% experience lucid dreams at least once per month", almost as if 17% is a low number - and even that sounds heavily exaggerated.

They must be based on the entire world population, including the most spiritual countries in the East.
Other than that, I would say that the number of Western lucid dreamers are closer to 1.7% or something.
In any case, it's definitely not 17%, at least not in number of consistent lucid dreaming enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by StephL

I have a long answer in the pipeline - just as a start to present - quite stunning - numbers.
5-10 % is an extremely conservative estimate - from MelSchaedlich`s paper:

I also find this statistic surprising (Steph is calling it "stunning" as well in the quote). Do you have the question that was asked in the survey?

As far a child LDs. I feel that mine were not like Sageous describes but can imagine that many cases could be. Back then I knew I was waking up from having occasional nightmares that were not real but were still scary maybe around 5-7 years old. My father told me about LDing as a way to take control. My recollection was that my very next nightmare I stopped and remembered what my father said, realizing this was all just a dream during the dream and I defeated the monster. Scary nightmares were rare after this. I still have nightmare-like scenes but they are very rarely scary. I went on to lots of flying and fun but like most people I eventually stopped paying attention to dreams unfortunately and fast forward decades later to me getting back into it recently. I agree my mindset is different now from then of course, but I am positive that my childhood LDs were true LDs.

Originally Posted by Sageous

It may be time for me to retire, huh, and keep my antiquated ideas about LD'ing to myself?

Absolutely not Sageous!!! You are an important part of the dynamics that keeps this place in balance and provide invaluable advice on the fundamentals of LDing!!! There will always be disagreements.

Thanks for posting this VagalTone, I was just thinking about something in these lines, and glad to see StephL is bringing some data into the discussion ^^

Why are lucid dreams uncommon without training?

This one seems easy at first: Because there are particular changes in terms of several cognitive capabilities (mostly higher functions) that disable certain actions/thought processes that would allow the person to become lucid. Regardless of what we know/don't know about the function/characteristics of dream, we are well aware of several changes in our neural activity that limit our access to things like self-reflective state/meta-consciousness/short-term memory/logical reasoning/etc. If you think about it, this question is mostly irrelevant for our purposes as seekers of lucidity. The reasons for lack of lucidity are embedded in the core science of dreams itself, and I very much doubt lucid dreaming is the answer to understand the normal dreams.

We need to target a fundamental question, and stick with it. This (imo ofc) is the most important question for lucid dreaming right now:

What mechanisms are involved in lucidity?

Why is this extremely important?

- Because it would give researchers an important framework, and it would eliminate much of the "trunk of garbage" we currently have laying around the "streets" of lucid dreaming. In case anyone hasn't noticed, it's not good that we have so many techniques for achieving a DILD: it means we have no clue about the underlying processes about becoming lucid inside a dream. What we need to is strike into the core of what lucidity is, identify what makes us lucid, and determine what sort of cognitive practice(s)/function(s) have the biggest effect on those mechanisms.

- Because it would put us one step closer to solving the biggest obstacle to lucid dreaming research: we lack data. The only way we can better understand lucid dreaming as a science it's to increase the sample of lucid dreamers so studies can grow at the same time the field expands. This has practical advantages even outside the field, by linking lucid dreaming to health research, especially regarding mental health, sleep, physical/cognitive performance, sports psychology, etc etc.

Now, jumping into a possible answer:

We know (not just by the study that is in the LD news that StephL mentioned) that lucid dreaming state resembles a mixture of 2 distinct sides of the continuum of consciousness: sleep and waking. What happens in any lucid dream, is that your brain starts escalating this line, and the variability of the several aspects presents in the (now lucid) dream is due this fluctuation.

- Low lucidity exhibits signs of impaired memory, low reflective skills, poor dream control.
(I'm assuming that vividness is not an aspect of lucidity, but this is naturally debatable).

(And...I completely forgot where I was going with this...oh well)

As said - there was a study finding significantly less mental health problems in the 5-10 % LDers in the population (Germany probably).
Even if it was so, that the more healthy do more LD - it is a selection factor indirectly then.

Got to read the study, but it may as well just mean that healthy people have better sleep quality, resulting in more chances to lucid dream. Low sleep quality also relates to recall problems, thus less mentally health people would recall less lucid dreams: there's so much going on that these studies need to be perceived with caution. I do find the study interesting though

Of course it is hard-wired - how else do we do it?
You can't just "learn" to wire your core-consciousness into your dreams, when there are not already ways there, I believe.

Maybe Sageous didn't use the best words, but he does have a point. We're as hard wired to lucid dream as we're hard-wired to induce sleep paralysis. Lucid dreaming is not hard-wired into humans because it is neither automatic or innate. Children have particular reasons to experience more lds than adults, and still, it's not extremely common, like it would be if we were hard-wired to it.

But sorry - you can not tell me it was not lucidity to know, that I dream, even despite thinking I have too open the kitchen window - and then time and time again - go air-swimming.
That surely is lucidity - even with low control and understanding.

Now that's a complex aspect, and honestly I don't find it surprising that Sageous would be called on that one xD You must understand that for someone like him, lucidity is not just awareness of being in a dream, but knowledge. If you're running from a dinosaur in a lucid dream, do you really grasp the concept of being in a dream? What if you're unconsciously lucid, should that be considered a lucid dream? When Sageous talks about lucidity ( or maybe he's gonna correct me all over the place in his next post ), he's talking about understanding the ramifications of your state of consciousness, not just being aware of it, because as we all know, being aware that you're in a dream will never take you far into dream control.
On the other side, I completely agree with you here: I can be lucid and still be compelled to run from a dinosaur because I'm hardwired to: lucidity doesn't eliminate these kind of responses that are naturally present in our mental schemas. Maybe that work is not a product of lucidity itself (the activation of meta-consciousness), but an activation of other brain functions.... It would make sense right? Is meta-consciousness enough for dream control? And I'm confused once again...

Sageous, one question: you put a lot of emphasis on self-awareness, and it got me thinking: if self-awareness is an habit, what makes it more effective than the habit of reality checking? Because now that I think about it, DILD techniques seem to fall into 2 categories:

- Explicity memory (the power of habit);
- Implicit memory (prospective memory being the largest player in here, way ahead of retrospective memory)

I'm sure I didn't word the above correctly, but let's assume: if self-awareness is something you build throughout the years, then it would be an habit right? You have the ingrained habit of assessing your state of consciousness, so much that you do it without thinking (in the sense, without effort to intentionally recall it). But if it's merely an habit, what makes it more effective than reality checking? Come to think about it, self-awareness and reality checking are the same thing in practical terms: you assess your state of consciousness. What is the important keyword of lucidity after this: self-awareness or habit? Because if they are the same, the real question is: is the journey from beginner to frequent lucid dreaming a matter of balance between prospective memory vs habit, more of the first in the beginning, and then largely due the later one?

(I think my post sounds confusing as hell, but I'm too sleepy to revise it atm xD)

Zoth: First, it must be said that Steph will like your post way more than mine... I'm okay with that, of course!

Now:

Originally Posted by Zoth

Maybe Sageous didn't use the best words, but he does have a point. We're as hard wired to lucid dream as we're hard-wired to induce sleep paralysis. Lucid dreaming is not hard-wired into humans because it is neither automatic or innate. Children have particular reasons to experience more lds than adults, and still, it's not extremely common, like it would be if we were hard-wired to it.

Nicely put; thanks!

Now that's a complex aspect, and honestly I don't find it surprising that Sageous would be called on that one xD You must understand that for someone like him, lucidity is not just awareness of being in a dream, but knowledge. If you're running from a dinosaur in a lucid dream, do you really grasp the concept of being in a dream? What if you're unconsciously lucid, should that be considered a lucid dream? When Sageous talks about lucidity ( or maybe he's gonna correct me all over the place in his next post ), he's talking about understanding the ramifications of your state of consciousness, not just being aware of it, because as we all know, being aware that you're in a dream will never take you far into dream control.

Spot on as usual Zoth! I could even take that one step farther: it isn't just about control, but being aware that you are interacting with your dream world and, at the same time, that dream world is you. Just being aware that "this is a dream" does not approach that kind of relationship with your environment (in this case, the dream world).

Sageous, one question: you put a lot of emphasis on self-awareness, and it got me thinking: if self-awareness is an habit, what makes it more effective than the habit of reality checking? Because now that I think about it, DILD techniques seem to fall into 2 categories:

- Explicit memory (the power of habit);
- Implicit memory (prospective memory being the largest player in here, way ahead of retrospective memory)

I'm sure I didn't word the above correctly, but let's assume: if self-awareness is something you build throughout the years, then it would be an habit right? You have the ingrained habit of assessing your state of consciousness, so much that you do it without thinking (in the sense, without effort to intentionally recall it). But if it's merely an habit, what makes it more effective than reality checking? Come to think about it, self-awareness and reality checking are the same thing in practical terms: you assess your state of consciousness. What is the important keyword of lucidity after this: self-awareness or habit? Because if they are the same, the real question is: is the journey from beginner to frequent lucid dreaming a matter of balance between prospective memory vs habit, more of the first in the beginning, and then largely due the later one?

I think you might be misunderstanding my take on self-awareness, Zoth. For me it is not a technique, but a state of mind. Self-awareness is literally sentience, and it is by no means a habit!

I don't believe you could consider self-awareness a habit any more than you could consider being awake, or maybe joyful, a habit. There are lots of things we build through the years, like our physical forms, our knowledge and wisdom, our prowess at particular skills or arts. Are those things habits too, or are they time-honed facets of our personalities, of our selves?

That said, I think (a habit of) RC's could be an excellent tool for developing self-awareness, though not the only one. This is because, as a state test, if done correctly and not by rote, RC's allow their practitioner a moment to wonder about whether they are dreaming or not and, after they have determined that they are not, then they can wonder about where they really are. This sort of stream of consciousness is very handy when the RC reveals you are in a dream, and will probably lead to sparking self-awareness in the dream -- and a nice LD!

That said, I think you might be making the process of LD'ing a bit too mechanical. Those DILD techniques will both work (often in parallel, BTW), but they will only work if your mind is ready to be lucid. Otherwise you'll just manage to say, "Hey, this is a dream!" and then pretty much lose lucidity or wake up, because you lacked the self-awareness to truly appreciate where you are. I think that is my overriding problem with techniques: LD'ing, by definition, is a state of mind, and not the conclusion to a series of clever actions or habits (or for that matter a series of cues from machines, or stimuli from drugs). To see it in such linear terms I think leaves out much of what the lucid experience really entails.

Perhaps that is my problem? That I see LD'ing not as a mechanical result of, say, habits, but as potential tool for growth, exploration, and entertainment of a self-aware mind? This perspective might not be correct, physiologically, but it certainly elevates our being above just that of a programmable machine... I think I like that perspective.

Hey, you don't suppose that the "barrier" to lucidity is nothing physical at all, but simply dreamers' choosing to set aside self-awareness in the name of all those techniques, do you? That perhaps people are indeed doing everything right, but they're doing so without including the most fundamental aspect of lucidity, self-awareness? Something to think about, I think.

So: No; practicing self-awareness -- or, rather, achieving the ability to exercise self-awareness -- is not the same as maintaining a habit of RC'ing. RC'ing, and all those other techniques, can be helpful toward reaching the moment where self-awareness unites with the dream, but that's all they are: helpful habits meant to reach a goal, that goal being self-awareness in a dream.

I hope that made some sense!

Sageous: Self-awareness is the most important tool for lucidity, and being self-aware in WL means being self-aware in dreams(LD and NLDs), of course when you have honed it to a certain level, and I assume that Self-awareness isn't shut off during NLD(like, for example, memory that shuts off during NLD), but self-awareness isn't from a particular part of the brain, but from logic? or anything similar? It is a product of actions produced by the brain? Not directly produced? Anyways, if self-awareness is honed in WL, and thus it is increased automatically during NLD, then it is indeed the most powerful aspect of LDing.

Note: Don't ever retire! That would cause a big emptiness in DV!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Sageous: Self-awareness is the most important tool for lucidity

I would like to disagree. I think that Self-awareness can be a very important tool for lucidity, but one that I have mostly abandoned, I am trying a method right now similar to self-awareness, but I have no fruit with it yet. I would type more, but it is lucid dream time. g'night.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

I would like to disagree. I think that Self-awareness can be a very important tool for lucidity, but one that I have mostly abandoned, I am trying a method right now similar to self-awareness, but I have no fruit with it yet. I would type more, but it is lucid dream time. g'night.

Good night, and sweat LDs!
But, are you sure that your self-awareness isn't developed quite well now? For a very successful LDer, you must have better self-awareness than the average or beginner LDer

Also, about my post to Sageous, I hope I didn't give the wrong idea. I meant that is self-awareness increased in NLDs because of the expectation and intention? or is it that it is maintained to a certain level within the dream? I think it's the first one, but if self-awareness isn't a product of a particular peace of the brain that is shut off during NLDs, then it could well be the later.

Edit:I love theories related to self-awareness and sentience!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

... of course when you have honed it to a certain level, and I assume that Self-awareness isn't shut off during NLD(like, for example, memory that shuts off during NLD), but self-awareness isn't from a particular part of the brain, but from logic? or anything similar? It is a product of actions produced by the brain? Not directly produced?

That's an excellent question, LouaiB, and I certainly don't have the answer to it. I would say that self-awareness is a higher function of consciousness that somehow transcends the normal functions of the brain, but is certainly fueled by all of them; especially memory.

So yes, I will think it "is a product of actions produced by the brain" until I find out otherwise, but it is a global product with no specific neurons or lobes dedicated to it ... just like its little brother consciousness! Other, more primordial bits of consciousness, like straight awareness and memory, probably do have dedicated brain "parts" working them, though it does seem that the more we learn about the brain, the more we discover its higher functions seem to be happening all over the place.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Also ... I hope I didn't give the wrong idea. I meant that is self-awareness increased in NLDs because of the expectation and intention? or is it that it is maintained to a certain level within the dream? I think it's the first one, but if self-awareness isn't a product of a particular peace of the brain that is shut off during NLDs, then it could well be the later.

Yes, if you experience a lot of self-awareness in waking-life, I think that it does increase a bit in NLD's. Same goes for having lots of self-awareness-filled LD's.

But no, I do not think that self-awareness is a product of expectation/intention. They are two very different things, each affecting very different but almost equally important aspects of a dreaming experience. Expectation/intention is very much a driver of unconscious activity, and is an important fundamental in dreaming, but it does nothing for self-awareness... indeed, you can be thoroughly un-self-aware and still have your dreams driven by expectation/intention. No only that, but expectation always drives dreams, whether you're into LD'ing or not, and you can set intentions for NLD's just as well as LD's, all without a moment of self-awareness.

So I would say it's the latter: because self-awareness is not a product of any specific brain processes, self-awareness can be present in a dream, even when the rest of the stuff, including memory, is shut off or unavailable. If you have an excellent handle on your self-awareness and practice it often, its presence (aka, your presence) will linger in NLD's, waiting in the wings for you to escalate that presence into a LD.

Note: Don't ever retire! That would cause a big emptiness in DV!

Awe, thanks! I'll likely be around for a while, regardless of how far the mainstream of this stuff seems to be shifting away from me.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

I would like to disagree. I think that Self-awareness can be a very important tool for lucidity, but one that I have mostly abandoned, I am trying a method right now similar to self-awareness, but I have no fruit with it yet. I would type more, but it is lucid dream time. g'night.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Good night, and sweat LDs!
But, are you sure that your self-awareness isn't developed quite well now? For a very successful LDer, you must have better self-awareness than the average or beginner LDer

Bandonboss: Having read, enjoyed, and learned from so many of your posts, I think I must agree with LouaiB that you might be just a bit more connected to your self-awareness than you think. And, as LouaiB already noted as well, self-awareness, once well-established, is not the easiest thing to shut off... just sayin'!

Yes, the current mainstream is killing us. Everyone wants a glamorous technique that is simple and fast. But, practicing the fundamentals, even though it takes time, is the most smart and rewarding thing in the long run. It is truly the right path to go with. Think about it, intermediate LDers must have higher self-awareness, so honing them directly is the key to directly becoming an expert. So, it is truly the fastest and most effective way to become a professional LDer.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

I would like to disagree. I think that Self-awareness can be a very important tool for lucidity, but one that I have mostly abandoned, I am trying a method right now similar to self-awareness, but I have no fruit with it yet.

What's the method?

Another thought:
Self-awareness activates the memory in dreams, and memory is an important component of being self-aware. Now, someone might say that how come you need self-awareness to activate memory and need memory to activate self-awareness? Because it's not like that. Memory is not the only factor for activating self-awareness. We want to use the other factors that are responsible for self-awareness. These other factors stay on or partially on during NLDs, so we use them to coax a little self-awareness to the NLD, then that self-awareness "leaks" to the memory and activates it. So, even though memory is an important component of self-awareness, it is not used to activate the self-awareness in a NLD, rather to be activated by the small self-awareness from other parts of the brain, and then used to become lucid.
Right , Sageous?

What's the method?

night, and sweat LDs!
But, are you sure that your self-awareness isn't developed quite well now? For a very successful LDer, you must have better self-awareness than the average or beginner LDer

Originally Posted by Sageous

Bandonboss: Having read, enjoyed, and learned from so many of your posts, I think I must agree with LouaiB that you might be just a bit more connected to your self-awareness than you think. And, as LouaiB already noted as well, self-awareness, once well-established, is not the easiest thing to shut off... just sayin'!

0_0 maybe it is self awareness. I will be putting my entire technique on here on my thread, this will give you a chance to see if it is classified as self-awareness. I would classify it more as dream awareness, night time awareness, or Straight up expectation.

I'm really curious to read that thread!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

I'm really curious to read that thread!

I am almost done. Might be able to get it done today or tomorrow. It is reallylong so far, i just have a bit more to type up and then I have to format it on here so that it will be easy/more interesting to read.

take your time. No body's rushing you ( I think)

about that "hard wired'' or ''learning'' thing, I think that in dreams, we percieve the same way as RL. We see, smell, feel the same way. The only difference is the input we get. It is possible to become aware in dreams, and it needs factors to induce it. So, it is a normal thing. Consciousness doesn't need a new way to activate in dreams. It just turns on. So, it is nothing out of the natural mechanism. This, of course, is my own opinion.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

I am almost done. Might be able to get it done today or tomorrow. It is reallylong so far, i just have a bit more to type up and then I have to format it on here so that it will be easy/more interesting to read.

Great. I love it when someone comes up with a new angle on lucidity. Looking forward to reading

I hope it's okay, but I'll answer your pm in here LouaiB, because my answer goes (it seems) against the view of Sageous, and it's interesting to see 2 perspectives working out. One thing he's spot on: I might be biased towards a more mechanical view of lucidity, partially due the fact that lucidity has indeed visible neurocorrelates (you can see it happening in the brain). But let me develop (I accidentally deleted the original response, but I'll do my best to recall what I wrote!):

by LouaiB: LDing is the issue of memory. Since you memory is off during dreams, you need to turn it on so you can remember that a dreamlike thing is unnatural. How? By increasing your self-awareness in dreams.When you are self-aware in dreams, your memory will be much more accessible.

Many will agree here that LDing is (but not limited to) an issue of memory. The reality is not that you're memory is off but impaired to some extent, which we can't quite figure. You do possess qualities such as procedural memory, semantic memory, and even to some degree, autobiographical memory. What confuses us, is t

by LouaiB:RRCing is a great way to improve your self-awareness during the day. The nice thing about it is that , with practice, it becomes second nature.

by Sageous: I don't believe you could consider self-awareness a habit any more than you could consider being awake, or maybe joyful, a habit. There are lots of things we build through the years, like our physical forms, our knowledge and wisdom, our prowess at particular skills or arts. Are those things habits too, or are they time-honed facets of our personalities, of our selves?

This is where we disagree. Now, I think that we can all start with a basic truth regarding self-awareness, which for the purposes of this post (we can find another definition) we will define as:

Self-awareness is the capacity/state for/of introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

I'll agree that self-awareness is a state of mind, but that doesn't cut it into practical terms. Self-awareness, like you (Sageous) mention and many of us agree, is something which is not hard-wired into humans. But for that exact reason, a long part of journey (lding journey) is not engaging in self-awareness, it's creating the habit of self-awareness. Regardless of what self-awareness is, we need to consciously direct our minds to it. Like you said, you've been building this self-awareness for many many years, so what you are doing is not (correct me if I'm wrong) reaching self-awareness: what you're doing/trying to do is achieving a continuous of this state of mind - we know that it's biological impossible to keep a continuum, so eventually, we are consciously reprogramming ourselves to perform that shift. At some point, like LouaiB mentioned, it becomes second nature. But this all still qualifies as an habit:

A habit is a routine of behavior that is repeated regularly and tends to occur subconsciously.

Even if self-awareness wasn't an habit, we need to engage in an habit to *reach it* or develop it, so in the end, it's all the same concept: one type of DILD involves the implementation of habits to increase self-awareness. You can't shift to self-awareness mode unconsciously unless the habit is formed. Now where you and I might be clashing without knowing is where self-awareness is relevant to lucid dreaming. Notice that the original post is dwelling on the level of "induction", while you seem to dwell on the level of "development". I'll explain:

- If we assume lucidity as a shift in the state of consciousness (I'm going with the perspective I already mentioned where you're advancing a bit more towards waking life consciousness), then it wouldn't necessarily be self-awareness that would grant you the tools for post-lucidity induction.

by Sageous: Those DILD techniques will both work (often in parallel, BTW), but they will only work if your mind is ready to be lucid. Otherwise you'll just manage to say, "Hey, this is a dream!" and then pretty much lose lucidity or wake up, because you lacked the self-awareness to truly appreciate where you are. I think that is my overriding problem with techniques: LD'ing, by definition, is a state of mind, and not the conclusion to a series of clever actions or habits (or for that matter a series of cues from machines, or stimuli from drugs). To see it in such linear terms I think leaves out much of what the lucid experience really entails.

It's this exact point that I find extremely relevant: so what we are picturing are DILD techniques that can and do work, that will grant you lucid dreaming induction. It's this simple! It doesn't matter if you're self-aware or not, you can induce lucid dreams based on:

- Habit formation;
- Prospective memory;

But what's the issue then? You lack development! See where I'm going at? Self-awareness is not a necessity to induce lucidity in itself, as random ordinary people have lucid dreams without any practice/information. But development of lucidity: dream stabilization, dream control are only a product of self-awareness: if you can't understand yourself and the reality you are in, you won't be able to dissociate yourself from mental schemas present in the waking life, that kick in the moment you become lucid. Another great example of why self-awareness relevance is not in the start/induction of lucidity, but in it's development is EILD. I'm just guessing, but wouldn't you believe that by finding the neurocorrelates of lucid dreaming, we could stimulate certain brain regions responsible for reflective thought, logic, etc (whatever they may be), and induce lucidity? After all, if you can use NovaDreamer without self-awareness, but a simple pattern recognition (boosted by MILD) over and over, where is the need for self-awareness for the induction?. I think you got my point now, and for those who didn't, what I'm basically saying is that self-awareness is only essential for post-lucidity induction (mostly dream control and maintenance of this state of mind), not for the induction itself.

by LouaiB: What you want to do is to use that advantage to your benefit. Since dreams are partially made out of our daily experiences, we hope that the self-awareness increased by those RRC will be a part of those experiences that will be lucky enough to be a part of the dream, thus making you more self-aware in the dream. As mentioned above, self-awareness , with practice, will become second nature, so it will be more likely for it to be a part of the dream(that's why it is more effective than RCing). So, more self-awareness= bigger chance of it being a part of the dream(expectations).

We don't know. Not only we don't understand the temporal aspect of daily residue process in dream content expression (we know it can happen days after, sometimes weeks), but we also don't understand exactly how the emotional aspect of it (brought by the allegedly function that dreams act as emotional regulation mechanisms), or even how exactly memory is expressed. Habit formation seems something simple, but why don't simple habits like checking the time, your mobile, biting your nails, occur often in dreams? We went as far as to include dream signs, but we still don't know what exactly makes a certain habit carry out in a dream, where your memory seems to be impaired. We know that prospective memory can't be the answer, otherwise veteran lders would need to keep thinking about inducting a lucid dream (they don't need to consciously think about it anymore it seems).

If you set up strong expectation with intention, and the thing(lets say a person) appears, it would trigger self-awareness, which will trigger memory so you remember that this person is the person you wanted to see in the dream, so you become lucid. this is one way to coax self-awareness.

Expectation and intention are part of memory ,and should be considered within it. You develop expectation based on retrospective memory, and if intention isn't the same as prospective memory, it sure seems a lot like it (I know I'm being over simplistic on this one, but it's for the sake of practical discussion).

(I keep loosing myself at the middle of the post, I'll stop here xD)

PS: forgot to mention: that discussion between StephL and Sageous got me a lucid last night lol. Me and a DC briefly discussed what dream control and lucidity was, and boy he looked at me like I was an alien after I presented my view on it.

prospective memory surely increases the effectiveness of intention. That is why MILD is great with the fundamentals. As for self-awareness, I have 2 questions:
1. Does self-awareness coax in dreams by means of a habit(making it second nature). I know this is a question you just talked about, but if the memory responsible for such maintainance of a habit seems to be linked to intention. I will explain: Not all habits coax to dreams, but habits that we use intention to support seem to coax well.
2. When making self-awareness a habit and using intention to support it, does it actually coax to the dream(has there been direct studies to show that?)

1. Does self-awareness coax in dreams by means of a habit(making it second nature). I know this is a question you just talked about, but if the memory responsible for such maintainance of a habit seems to be linked to intention. I will explain: Not all habits coax to dreams, but habits that we use intention to support seem to coax well

.

Intention and habit are opposite (or at least different) things. An habit is something you do unconsciously, or at least a behavior that is integrated on your daily events. Intention implies a conscious attitude towards something. I get what you're trying to say though, and I honestly don't know what makes the "intent" influencing the "habit" in dreams: my view is that it's prospective memory that is helping you remembering something. Prospective memory can still take effect under distraction or temporal distance between the reminder and the cue, especially if we're talking about event-based prospective memory. In simple terms:

- While you develop the habit, prospective memory takes a larger role (you need to "work for lucidity);
- After the habit get's implemented, it still won't happen all the time (I can't comment on lucidity like hukif's/sageous/sivanson in here), but you need less reminders. I got no clue why, in this particular aspect I'm just speculating, so other theories would be welcomed

2. When making self-awareness a habit and using intention to support it, does it actually coax to the dream(has there been direct studies to show that?)

LouaiB: the (I think) most recent meta-analysis on lucid dreaming technique effectiveness highlighted one thing: Poor methodological quality of all studies regarding EVERY technique listed. Yes, that includes LaBerge's MILD. Guess that should give you an idea of what the answer for that question is xD