Thread: Lucid Dreaming does not make you more spiritual

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

people who are more spiritual might even find it offensive, considering the things they have learned and experienced in their voyages.

People who think there 'more spiritual' than others are narcissistic.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I for one stopped using LD'ing for entertainment purposes a very long time ago, Barry, and I still seem to be finding things to do, things to learn.

No, LD'ing will not, by any means, "make you more spiritual." Nothing, as far as we know, "makes" you spiritual; you must develop your personal spirituality on your own, using available tools, time, and opening your mind to things that transcend mundane life. LD'ing might be one of those tools, but it is not some special force that causes spirituality.

So, though it can help you in your pursuits, LD'ing is not a shortcut to enlightenment (you still gotta do that yourself). LD'ing is a state of consciousness, after all, and not a mystical power. However, if you are a spiritually-oriented sort and hold spiritual pursuits high on your list of lifetime goals, I think you will find that the don-dual (everything-is-you) nature of LD'ing can be a very effective tool for exploring your own spirituality, provided you are careful not to delude yourself by, say, immediately assuming that the things you are imagining in your dreams are real.

Some of the major tools for spiritual development include introspection, meditation/prayer, and developing a powerful sense of self. LD'ing is potentially the best (perhaps only) form of direct communication with or observation of the workings of your unconscious, it is an outstanding form of meditation by itself, and -- given that self-awareness essentially defines lucidity -- developing your LD'ing skills will also develop your waking-life self-awareness in waking-life. Those to me are things that make LD'ing far more than purely an entertainment vehicle, so I'm afraid I will not join you in admitting as much.

Now, that is just LD'ing as a tool for growth. Keep in mind also that LD'ing is a unique tool for expanding your mind and testing the limits of your imagination. I suppose this can be done in the form of entertainment (after all, what you dream ought to be fun), but regardless it is a sort of vigorous mental exercise that tests and stretches the power of your imagination. Also, since LD'ing affords you an opportunity to experience your existence in ways you cannot do or imagine in waking-life, LD'ing is a very powerful tool for transcendental explorations. To me, succeeding in transcendental exercises leaves even the most entertaining of dreams far behind in terms of significance.

I could go on, but I think you get the point: LD'ing's potential impact in your life can be much greater than just as a form of entertainment. Indeed, by using LD's for only entertainment, you are merely dipping your toe into the ocean of potential the state offers without even knowing you can take a completely immersive plunge, if you care to.

To assume that entertainment is all there is or, worse, to admit that that is all there is (thus perceiving it as an incontrovertible fact), will ultimately make that all there is for you, and you might miss out on the far more satisfying (even transcendental) LD'ing pursuits that lie just over a dreaming horizon you have inadvertently refused to approach, much less cross.

tl;dr No, LD'ing does not make you spiritual, because I believe nothing "makes" you spiritual. What it does do is provide a unique and effective tool for the pursuit of far more things than entertainment. Also, if you come to believe as fact that entertaining is LD'ing's only use, that likely will become its only use for you.

Saying it's just for entertainment may be wrong, but that's what a lot of people use it for. But, as you said It doesn't make you more spiritual.

Lucid dreaming is a tool. No tool has power over you. You put power into the tool to use it and create what you want. Therefore, lucid dreaming does not make you more spiritual, but how you use it can.

Originally Posted by Barry

People who think there 'more spiritual' than others are narcissistic.

I'm sorry, but this is really ignorant and rude. Some people label themselves as spiritual, some people label themselves as not being spiritual at all. Therefore, the spiritual people literally are more spiritual than the non-spiritual people.
I'm not saying the statement you made never applies, but sweeping generalities like that are wrong!


Finally, why do you feel the need to make this thread? I find it childish and bane to assume your opinion is 100% correct and post it knowing it will upset people. It seems like you are trolling.

Originally Posted by EamonWill

Finally, why do you feel the need to make this thread? I find it childish and bane to assume your opinion is 100% correct and post it knowing it will upset people. It seems like you are trolling.

Hey EamonWill, trolling he may be, but the controversial heading certainly got some attention, and has drawn some interesting comments.
I think the ends justified the means?

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Hey EamonWill, trolling he may be, but the controversial heading certainly got some attention, and has drawn some interesting comments.
I think the ends justified the means?

It's all about intentions. Ruffling some feathers can be advantageous if it leads to the development of wholesome qualities in one's self and others.

In this case, it seems his initial comments came from a place of attachment and delusion, and undoubtedly caused aversion and defensiveness in others. Thus his "means" came from a place of unwholesomeness and lead to the arising of unwholesome qualities in others. This is not justifiable.

A more wholesome discussing could have arisen from an OP somewhere a long the lines of, "Does lucid dreaming make you more spiritual?"

Originally Posted by VinceField

A more wholesome discussing could have arisen from an OP somewhere a long the lines of, "Does lucid dreaming make you more spiritual?"

But would it have?

I'm not quite so sure. I think that, regardless of his motives, when Barry set the OP as he did (here and on another thread at the same time), he elicited responses, arguments, and passions that might not have emerged had he set an OP that simply invited yet another echo chamber of folks who felt that LD'ing made them more spiritual, but had no need to defend or justify the feeling.

Barry may not have meant to (perhaps he was just trolling), but his abrasive OP(s) might have opened an interesting door or two...

Originally Posted by Sageous

But would it have?

I'm not quite so sure. I think that, regardless of his motives, when Barry set the OP as he did (here and on another thread at the same time), he elicited responses, arguments, and passions that might not have emerged had he set an OP that simply invited yet another echo chamber of folks who felt that LD'ing made them more spiritual, but had no need to defend or justify the feeling.

Barry may not have meant to (perhaps he was just trolling), but his abrasive OP(s) might have opened an interesting door or two...

I agree that his approach has opened doors of discussion that wouldn't have been brought to light otherwise, causing arguments, passions, and defenses to emerge and thus making the discussion more interesting.

However, the issue I raised was not the appeal of the discussion, as obviously passionate and defensive responses are perceived as being more interesting to our western drama-addicted culture.

Rather, the issue was the wholesomeness of the discussion, or it's conduciveness to the well-being of those involved. I believe a more wholesome discussion would not illicit aversion and defense mechanisms arising from attachment to views and fabricated identifications, but would be a conversation of sharing views and experiences in which the posters are coming from a place of equanimity and a selfless desire to help one another acquire a clearer perspective, rather than simply asserting one's opinions because their beliefs were put into question. The need to defend or justify one's views is generally an attribute of an unwholesome state of mind.

Originally Posted by VinceField

I agree that his approach has opened doors of discussion that wouldn't have been brought to light otherwise, causing arguments, passions, and defenses to emerge and thus making the discussion more interesting.

However, the issue I raised was not the appeal of the discussion, as obviously passionate and defensive responses are perceived as being more interesting to our western drama-addicted culture.

Rather, the issue was the wholesomeness of the discussion, or it's conduciveness to the well-being of those involved. I believe a more wholesome discussion would not illicit aversion and defense mechanisms arising from attachment to views and fabricated identifications, but would be a conversation of sharing views and experiences in which the posters are coming from a place of equanimity and a selfless desire to help one another acquire a clearer perspective, rather than simply asserting one's opinions because their beliefs were put into question. The need to defend or justify one's views is generally an attribute of an unwholesome state of mind.

I don't disagree with your sentiment VinceField, but you can just ignore his tone! The rest of us can then make it more "wholesome" (not really a word I would use).

I did just check one definition of spritual;
"relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things".
I guess you could say that makes the pursuit of LDing very spiritual. It's certainly not material or directly physical.