Thread: Lucid Dreaming does not make you more spiritual

Originally Posted by Barry

Lucid dreaming is purely for entertainment and in my opinion we should all admit it

Lucid dreaming is an extremely convincing simulation of waking life, where you can practice all sorts of phobias and whatnot and improve as a person in waking life.
So lucid dreaming is definitely more than "just entertainment", there are numerous reports from people who have improved several aspects of their waking life thanks to lucid dreaming in the book Exploring The World of Lucid Dreaming, for God's sake.

Lucid dreaming can be used for pure entertainment, obviously, and that's probably the best way to use them for novice lucid dreamers before they start becoming more deep and sophisticated in them.
But lucid dreaming has infinite potential for practically everything that you can imagine, and it makes you think of life in a different way.

...How.. bold, to say the least..
Everyone is free to use lucid dreaming however they want. You can have your opinions, but you can't say with any authority that "lucid dreaming does not make you more spiritual". That is just ignorant and people who are more spiritual might even find it offensive, considering the things they have learned and experienced in their voyages.

I for one stopped using LD'ing for entertainment purposes a very long time ago, Barry, and I still seem to be finding things to do, things to learn.

No, LD'ing will not, by any means, "make you more spiritual." Nothing, as far as we know, "makes" you spiritual; you must develop your personal spirituality on your own, using available tools, time, and opening your mind to things that transcend mundane life. LD'ing might be one of those tools, but it is not some special force that causes spirituality.

So, though it can help you in your pursuits, LD'ing is not a shortcut to enlightenment (you still gotta do that yourself). LD'ing is a state of consciousness, after all, and not a mystical power. However, if you are a spiritually-oriented sort and hold spiritual pursuits high on your list of lifetime goals, I think you will find that the don-dual (everything-is-you) nature of LD'ing can be a very effective tool for exploring your own spirituality, provided you are careful not to delude yourself by, say, immediately assuming that the things you are imagining in your dreams are real.

Some of the major tools for spiritual development include introspection, meditation/prayer, and developing a powerful sense of self. LD'ing is potentially the best (perhaps only) form of direct communication with or observation of the workings of your unconscious, it is an outstanding form of meditation by itself, and -- given that self-awareness essentially defines lucidity -- developing your LD'ing skills will also develop your waking-life self-awareness in waking-life. Those to me are things that make LD'ing far more than purely an entertainment vehicle, so I'm afraid I will not join you in admitting as much.

Now, that is just LD'ing as a tool for growth. Keep in mind also that LD'ing is a unique tool for expanding your mind and testing the limits of your imagination. I suppose this can be done in the form of entertainment (after all, what you dream ought to be fun), but regardless it is a sort of vigorous mental exercise that tests and stretches the power of your imagination. Also, since LD'ing affords you an opportunity to experience your existence in ways you cannot do or imagine in waking-life, LD'ing is a very powerful tool for transcendental explorations. To me, succeeding in transcendental exercises leaves even the most entertaining of dreams far behind in terms of significance.

I could go on, but I think you get the point: LD'ing's potential impact in your life can be much greater than just as a form of entertainment. Indeed, by using LD's for only entertainment, you are merely dipping your toe into the ocean of potential the state offers without even knowing you can take a completely immersive plunge, if you care to.

To assume that entertainment is all there is or, worse, to admit that that is all there is (thus perceiving it as an incontrovertible fact), will ultimately make that all there is for you, and you might miss out on the far more satisfying (even transcendental) LD'ing pursuits that lie just over a dreaming horizon you have inadvertently refused to approach, much less cross.

tl;dr No, LD'ing does not make you spiritual, because I believe nothing "makes" you spiritual. What it does do is provide a unique and effective tool for the pursuit of far more things than entertainment. Also, if you come to believe as fact that entertaining is LD'ing's only use, that likely will become its only use for you.

Originally Posted by Barry

Lucid dreaming is purely for entertainment and in my opinion we should all admit it

I disagree 100% with your claims that lucid dreaming is purely for entertainment, maybe come up with an actual reason to state this and try again ;D.

You have 317 posts on this forum yet you failed to realize how wrong you are.

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

people who are more spiritual might even find it offensive, considering the things they have learned and experienced in their voyages.

People who think there 'more spiritual' than others are narcissistic.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I for one stopped using LD'ing for entertainment purposes a very long time ago, Barry, and I still seem to be finding things to do, things to learn.

No, LD'ing will not, by any means, "make you more spiritual." Nothing, as far as we know, "makes" you spiritual; you must develop your personal spirituality on your own, using available tools, time, and opening your mind to things that transcend mundane life. LD'ing might be one of those tools, but it is not some special force that causes spirituality.

So, though it can help you in your pursuits, LD'ing is not a shortcut to enlightenment (you still gotta do that yourself). LD'ing is a state of consciousness, after all, and not a mystical power. However, if you are a spiritually-oriented sort and hold spiritual pursuits high on your list of lifetime goals, I think you will find that the don-dual (everything-is-you) nature of LD'ing can be a very effective tool for exploring your own spirituality, provided you are careful not to delude yourself by, say, immediately assuming that the things you are imagining in your dreams are real.

Some of the major tools for spiritual development include introspection, meditation/prayer, and developing a powerful sense of self. LD'ing is potentially the best (perhaps only) form of direct communication with or observation of the workings of your unconscious, it is an outstanding form of meditation by itself, and -- given that self-awareness essentially defines lucidity -- developing your LD'ing skills will also develop your waking-life self-awareness in waking-life. Those to me are things that make LD'ing far more than purely an entertainment vehicle, so I'm afraid I will not join you in admitting as much.

Now, that is just LD'ing as a tool for growth. Keep in mind also that LD'ing is a unique tool for expanding your mind and testing the limits of your imagination. I suppose this can be done in the form of entertainment (after all, what you dream ought to be fun), but regardless it is a sort of vigorous mental exercise that tests and stretches the power of your imagination. Also, since LD'ing affords you an opportunity to experience your existence in ways you cannot do or imagine in waking-life, LD'ing is a very powerful tool for transcendental explorations. To me, succeeding in transcendental exercises leaves even the most entertaining of dreams far behind in terms of significance.

I could go on, but I think you get the point: LD'ing's potential impact in your life can be much greater than just as a form of entertainment. Indeed, by using LD's for only entertainment, you are merely dipping your toe into the ocean of potential the state offers without even knowing you can take a completely immersive plunge, if you care to.

To assume that entertainment is all there is or, worse, to admit that that is all there is (thus perceiving it as an incontrovertible fact), will ultimately make that all there is for you, and you might miss out on the far more satisfying (even transcendental) LD'ing pursuits that lie just over a dreaming horizon you have inadvertently refused to approach, much less cross.

tl;dr No, LD'ing does not make you spiritual, because I believe nothing "makes" you spiritual. What it does do is provide a unique and effective tool for the pursuit of far more things than entertainment. Also, if you come to believe as fact that entertaining is LD'ing's only use, that likely will become its only use for you.

Saying it's just for entertainment may be wrong, but that's what a lot of people use it for. But, as you said It doesn't make you more spiritual.

Depending on the approach you have to things, lucid dreaming can indeed help with spirituality.

You can use Lucid Dreaming to improve pretty much anything. If you just want to fly and have sex, then awesome, if you wanna practice spots, awesome, if you wanna tap in your inner self, awesome. All approaches are valid and bring benefits to your waking life.

Originally Posted by Barry

Saying it's just for entertainment may be wrong, but that's what a lot of people use it for.

Okay. But the fact that a lot of people LD for entertainment does not make it the only thing you can do with it. By that measure, the internet can only be used for facebook, twitter, youtube, and porn.

All in the matter of perspective. That is one thing I do like about lucid dreaming because it will become of how you judge it. There is no right or wrong answers for yourself however you can be wrong when you judge other people's dreams and experiences. In the end all lucid dreaming will be is an experience that yourself has given unconsciously and consciously. I don't think judgement has any real value in this concept since it can be perceive in a number of different ways from different people.

I guess I have used lucid dreaming for something spiritual, but nine times out of ten, entertainment is the goal. I often see lucid dreaming as a video game but in the process, I have inadvertently found ways to grow as person, overcome fears, and even rid myself of hatred toward others all as a natural side effect. I'm really not sure how to make it more spiritual. It just happens to me from time to time.

I'm just going to say I agree with the 2nd-10th posts. This is put bluntly and isn't backed up, and although this may be true for some, it is not for others.

Well - I disagree to a degree.
First up - I'm an atheist and don't believe in anything "supernatural" so if you are actually meaning to say, that there is nothing supernatural in LDing, I'm with you on that.

But even while the term "spirituality" has a whole lot of religious/superstitious baggage on board, it does capture an important aspect of lucid experience anyway. Or lets say, I lack a better word - maybe one could say LDing tends to trigger philosophical thought and a craving for insight into the mind's workings. It's a bit similar to meditation - it's hard to deny meditation the description of spiritual activity, even while you need not believe in anything in order to experience it's benefit, which can and has been scientifically demonstrated multiple times as well.
So - and upon looking it up on Wikipedia, I found myself justified in using the term:

Traditionally spirituality has been defined as a process of personal transformation in accordance with religious ideals. Since the 19th century spirituality is often separated from religion, and has become more oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth. It may refer to almost any kind of meaningful activity or blissful experience, but without a single, widely-agreed definition.

"Spiritual" experiences are a real thing, people really do experience special states of consciousness in meditation, in LDs, under certain drugs - and since neuroscience's only lately making progress in exploring what consciousness actually is, such states are naturally of great interest.
It gets problematic, though, when people jump to conclusions about the meaning of such experiences or go as far as to feel themselves justified to make grand claims about the nature of the cosmos.

Leaving that aside - LDing has become a beloved subject of scientific consciousness research and it's for example also at the core of Thomas Metzinger's philosophy, which is beyond any supernatural hokus-pokus, but he derives many of his insights from it.
So if it was only entertainment - how come neuroscientists and philosophers are so inspired by it and it proves so useful a study-subject?
http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-drea...ess-brain.html
Metzinger - Getting Lucid about Consciousness



@Sageous - very well put!

This might be a semantic issue. Maybe you should gives us a little insight as to what you mean by "making people more spiritual", Barry?

Lucid dreaming may not intrinsically "make one more spiritual", anymore than going to college will intrinsically "make" someone have a good career, but they are means to those ends. This is, of course, using the word 'spiritual' in the sense of being more in-tuned with one's spiritual beliefs; religion; etc. It has been used as a tool, to do just that, for thousands of years.

As Oneironanut said, I think I just had a different meaning of 'spiritual'. If you mean spiritual as this definition ' subjective experience and psychological growth. It may refer to almost any kind of meaningful activity or blissful experience' then I completely agree with you.

It doesnt matter what lucid dreaming is or for what purpouse you are using it. It can be spiritual, religious, self growth or simple enterteiment. Just depending on your views and the way you approach it. No right or wrong answer here since non of us really understand the process of dreaming to know the asnwers. Lets just let people think freely.

Originally Posted by Seltiez

It doesnt matter what lucid dreaming is or for what purpouse you are using it. It can be spiritual, religious, self growth or simple enterteiment. Just depending on your views and the way you approach it. No right or wrong answer here since non of us really understand the process of dreaming to know the asnwers. Lets just let people think freely.

But sharing people views can lead to better understanding. (Realized it was kind of stupid of me to say that healthy communaction is good for everybody.)

Originally Posted by Sageous

Okay. But the fact that a lot of people LD for entertainment does not make it the only thing you can do with it. By that measure, the internet can only be used for facebook, twitter, youtube, and porn.

...

...



@Steph

Slow clap.
Well put.

Originally Posted by Barry

Lucid dreaming is purely for entertainment in my opinion.

Barry!

Are you trolling us again?

Someone can be spiritual, with or without following any religion. For a non-religeous person such a myself, spirituality means self-betterment. Learning about myself and the world. After having some "impossible" events happening to me, there is no other way for me, but to be even more openminded and tolerant to others experiences.

And guess what. I can believe in OBEs and astral projections, in entities living in astral planes, in other dimensions, in afterlife AND in evolution and Big Bang, and science all at the same time. To me, things that are not "Scientifically proven yet, hence they don't exist" are just things that do exist, they only have not been scientifically proven yet.

I mean, we can't see wind, right, but it does exist! Haha, just kidding.

But just think about all things that did exist, even before science proved them. To me, science is just a way of explaining things, not a proof that something does or doesn't exist. And oh boy, I'm gonna get nailed for that now.

So yeah, spirituality is a wonderful thing, if you are interested in it. If you not, then good for you too. But Lucid dreaming had definitelly brought me closer to me and to my higher self. I see nothing wrong with having fun in LDs, but my ultimate goal is to better myself.

And all this is just my personal take on things. I don't expect anybody to follow my teachings, haha.

Oh yeah, and I think key to understanding is experience. I mean I could have an opinion about something I have no clue about, but will my opinion be the correct one?

Originally Posted by gab

Someone can be spiritual, with or without following any religion. For a non-religeous person such a myself, spirituality means self-betterment. Learning about myself and the world. After having some "impossible" events happening to me, there is no other way for me, but to be even more openminded and tolerant to others experiences.

And guess what. I can believe in OBEs and astral projections, in entities living in astral planes, in other dimensions, in afterlife AND in evolution and Big Bang, and science all at the same time. To me, things that are not "Scientifically proven yet, hence they don't exist" are just things that do exist, they only have not been scientifically proven yet.

I mean, we can't see wind, right, but it does exist! Haha, just kidding.

But just think about all things that did exist, even before science proved them. To me, science is just a way of explaining things, not a proof that something does or doesn't exist. And oh boy, I'm gonna get nailed for that now.

So yeah, spirituality is a wonderful thing, if you are interested in it. If you not, then good for you too. But Lucid dreaming had definitelly brought me closer to me and to my higher self. I see nothing wrong with having fun in LDs, but my ultimate goal is to better myself.

And all this is just my personal take on things. I don't expect anybody to follow my teachings, haha.

Oh yeah, and I think key to understanding is experience. I mean I could have an opinion about something I have no clue about, but will my opinion be the correct one?

Very well said. I agree with this 100%!

Originally Posted by PercyLucid

Depending on the approach you have to things, lucid dreaming can indeed help with spirituality.

You can use Lucid Dreaming to improve pretty much anything. If you just want to fly and have sex, then awesome, if you wanna practice spots, awesome, if you wanna tap in your inner self, awesome. All approaches are valid and bring benefits to your waking life.

PercyLucid, thanks to you for your brightness! I really liked your post!

I think it would be very good for us to connect more. I am a shaman, many times over (initiations, ugh!) and I am always looking to connect with others like me! Please!

Ahh! I am a past-life dream yogi, were it not for my old teacher Malame, I would not have been able to live! I had fallen sick. He was a yogi, a metaphysical practitioner. He cured me and sent me to school with the monks in the hills of tibet. I went eagerly and yearned for being as they did. I hope you see through the veil over your eyes soon when you say, "dreaming is only for entertainment."

This discussion here, is really a discussion on the purpose or nature of life. I couldn't tell you why you're here, or really what at all to do but find a way to experience something good, taste some good food, smell the good things in life, ride your bike when the autumn leaves are falling listening to your favorite girly song, even though you're a man and you couldn't tell anyone, just because it makes you feel like you are shining in your heart. There is a saying in the mystical tradition of the mechten (tibetan yogis) that is something like: "Life is as you are." If only we would all say: I make my life for the ultimate healing and benevolence of everyone and everything. Then, everyone could eventually be shining in the holy light like my teacher and I, now, as I sit, typing out these amazing words!

I love you all. You are all divine, magical, powerful spirits. Whether you call it by some mystical sounding noise or by a strange symbol of science, you are all divine energy, organize in a hyper-complex arrangement persisting through time and space. What you say, you birth as in a creation of life into the world. speak happiness, love, truth, wisdom, purity and light and the world will sing all around you a song of thanks and praise for your healing vibes.

I just feel so happy to be alive, whenever I really, really look at things.

Am I dreaming?

I am aware! This is the best thing of all, because awareness is the way of ecstasy... I once joked with my old highschool friends that if there were a personified diety out there named zeus, he probably ate donuts for cereal, with cosmic milk, that lasted forever, and that cosmic milk was the sweetest, tastiest, most nourishing, healthy milk - EVERY time. If you are aware, you can turn water into wine, you are like the alchemist, turning lead to gold, or like the modern physicist or engineer, able to map the heavens, CREATING: forging projections of your consciousness in machine form to be cast to the mighty orbs we might otherwise call gods above us. WE are constantly on a mission to seek ecstasy. Awareness is the key to the room of everlasting sweetness of the soul. So, I say to you, whatever you think about lucid dreaming, just know that you will find this place to be in your heart if you seek it. And all seek it, so seek it quick! Be like the athlete with little weight but water and food to carry you through on your journey, and not like the bumbling, grumbling bussinessman who stops to haggle for more burdens. Advance the race to light and harmonious ways!

Turn the scopes to the new horizon of the space within the soul to reveal a deep and awesome secret of truth: We are the living cosmos!

meanwhile the earth turns...

Originally Posted by nightlighter

meanwhile the earth turns...

I like your line of thought as well... but mostly the idea that the universe gives zero fucks.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I like your line of thought as well... but mostly the idea that the universe gives zero fucks.

yeah. as I love to say, when it really comes down to it, in the end it's all " ."

*crickets chirping*

because we're just here, at the end of the day, all you can do is look up, see the stars and remember that we know NOTHING! We may be as we wish, so let us be heavenly! After all, we are between stars, not simply under them!

I think that JIddu Krishnamurti puts it well when he says, there's no leader, no master, teacher, you yourself are your own guru.
^
https://archive.org/download/TheCrit...ishnamurti.mp3

Originally Posted by nightlighter

I think that JIddu Krishnamurti puts it well when he says, there's no leader, no master, teacher, you yourself are your own guru.

That's kind of a hypocritical thing for a guy whose life revolved around teaching and philosophizing (basically a guru), don't you think?

Not to mention that the great teachers will be the first to tell you to keep your eyes and mind wide open to new things, lest they pass by unnoticed. In making yourself your own teacher and guru, you run the risk of amplifying your own ignorance until it becomes truth, and, though it all seems so important to you, you've taught yourself nothing. In other words, you can be as aware as you can, but if you have no definitions or knowledge about those things about which you are being aware, you will invent your own definitions not just about the nature of your universe but also about your self and your spirituality, and those definitions will likely as not be wrong: you will think, however, that your wisdom is not just correct, but truly profound (Glenn Beck comes to mind here).

Sometimes a teacher, or a perspective that was not your own, can come in handy, by providing an infusion of new knowledge or spiritual wisdom that can help us break that self-referential loop caused by exploring these things on our own. Yes, you ultimately need to decide on your own, about what matters to you, but it would be nice to base that decision on more than just your own interpretations.

And yes, the world does continue to turn whether we are here or not, oblivious to our often bloviating self-importance. But that doesn't mean we can't learn how to best ride our little world as it hurtles through the cosmos, and maybe to explore other bits of that cosmos. Sure, the universe doesn't care about us, but that doesn't mean we have nothing; it doesn't all need to be shit, even if it ends that way. ... which I think was what you were saying in your previous post, Nightlighter, right?

I think we might be drifting off topic...

See, that's the great thing about opinions, Barry... it's yours. And no one else is under any obligation to accept/agree with that.