Thread: I need an army of lucid dreamers...

Hi Dreamviews,

I should introduce myself first - I'm Daniel Love, some of you may already know of me as the author of Are You Dreaming?. I'm also a reasonably well known lucid dream researcher and educator.
I've been a user and lurker of DreamViews for an embarrassingly long time, certainly long enough to make me feel my age! However, I've decided it's time to use my "official" account (which has been dormant far too long) as it'll give me a little more of a chance to get to know you all and also because I'd like to share with you an exciting new project I've got lined up; one I'd love you all to be involved in.

I can't give away too much at this point (sorry!), other than I'm planning something rather ambitious. I'm around two/three weeks away from launching but I'd like to give all a chance to sign up to be the first in the know.

What I'm looking for is an army of enthusiastic lucid dreamers, who are passionate about really pushing lucid dreaming far beyond its current boundaries. If this sounds like you - then you can use the link below to sign up to a mailing list, which I'll use to inform you all of the details as soon as things are ready. In return, I'll just ask for your help in spreading the project when it's released. Don't worry, I hate spam as much as you do, so you're safe to sign up.

You can sign up here:
Sign up - Play your part in the future of lucid dreaming...

Also, my deadline means I'm spending a Friday night stuck in my office - so, I'll be here a while to answer any questions, or just chat and get to know you all. Please feel free to ask me anything.

Signed up! But clicking on "continue to our website" takes me back to sign up page.

Great, glad to have you on the team gab!

Don't worry - that's exactly what should happen after the sign up, at the moment it's just a means for people to show interest, I'll be e-mailing details once the project is ready to be released into the wild; which will be in about two to three weeks.

I'm in. Sounds super interesting!

Thanks Saizaphod!
Great to have you on board!

I'm very excited about this project and it's wonderful to have other dedicated dreamers along for the journey!

Sounds very interesting. I sincerely hope it will be something as groundbreaking as the teaser suggests to be and not something very commercial like many other try these times...

Hi Raipat,

I can completely understand your concerns. I'm not sure if you're familiar with my previous work but I've always tried to be as blunt and honest as possible, and it's my personal battle to try and "clean up" the subject of lucid dreaming - to make it more realistic and human. There's a lot of regurgitated material out there and a lot of hype for things that don't live up to expectations - so believe me, I'm on the same page as you with this.

So I'll say this, I'm a lucid dreamer and a human being just like you. I can't work miracles (other than in the dream world). The project will only be as commercial as anything realistically needs to be to come into existence. I've dedicated my life to lucid dreaming and I can guarantee you that what I do is from the heart and fuelled by a passion for lucid dreaming. I've always found the most wonder and joy come from the free things in life (lucid dreaming, nature, knowledge etc.) so I've never been motivated by commercialism.

So, this isn't going to be another "magic pill/machine/course" that ends in disappointment - I don't even believe such things are necessarily possible or even very desirable.

What I'm offering will be is a genuine attempt to expand the field of lucid dreaming and to push things forward.

That's a bit of a ramble but I think your concerns deserved a thoughtful response. Basically, temper excitement with realism and I'll do my best to make something worthwhile!

Originally Posted by DanielLove

...

What I'm offering will be is a genuine attempt to expand the field of lucid dreaming and to push things forward.

This is so incredibly exciting. I feel like 5 years ago when I just discovered lucid dreaming.

All signed up. I loved your book, and glad to be a part of the project!

Thanks Oneirin (great name by the way),

I'm really pleased you enjoyed the book, I hope it helped with your own adventures?
The project is going to be quite vast and so there will be several stages to get involved with. The first and most important will be helping spread the word, as everything else will rely on that. You'll receive an email in about two weeks with more info. I'll also be checking into this thread as often as my schedule permits - so I'll share more when the time is right.

Please forgive me for not fawning, Mr. Love, but why are you being so secretive? I for one would really like to know for what specifically you need an army of LD'ers.

Respectfully, it seems that your thoughtful response to Raipat above actually said nothing at all about the project for which you wish to recruit us. Why not just tell us what you want us to do, and in as much detail as this format allows? You must know to some degree what you wish to do, right? Are you concerned that someone might steal your idea? This seems odd, if you have no commercial interests.

I'm sure that whatever project you have in mind is a fine one, but if your name weren't attached to it, it would appear as presented here like little more than an attempt to put together a mailing list.

I hope you'll excuse my cynicism, but it would have been nice if you had presented your project up front, and let us decide whether to sign up based on its merits rather than simply trust (or be impressed by) your celebrity in the LD'ing community. To hide its content from us and bank instead on your name recognition seems a bit disingenuous to me.

I'm sure this post will raise some ire from other members, and perhaps a stern warning from Gab, but I really felt this quetion needed to be asked; I hope you understand.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Please forgive me for not fawning, Mr. Love, but why are you being so secretive? I for one would really like to know for what specifically you need an army of LD'ers.

Respectfully, it seems that your thoughtful response to Raipat above actually said nothing at all about the project for which you wish to recruit us. Why not just tell us what you want us to do, and in as much detail as this format allows? You must know in general what you wish to do, right? Are you concerned that someone might steal your idea? This seems odd, if you have no commercial interests.

I'm sure that whatever project you have in mind is a fine one, but if your name weren't attached to it, it would appear as presented like little more than an attempt to put together a mailing list.

I hope you'll excuse my cynicism, but it would have been nice if you had presented your project up front, and let us decide whether to sign up based on its merits rather than simply trust (or be impressed by) your celebrity in the LD'ing community. To hide its content from us and bank instead on your name recognition seems a bit disingenuous to me.

I'm sure this post will raise some ire from other members, and perhaps a stern warning from Gab, but I really felt this quetion needed to be asked; I hope you understand.

Hi Sageous,

No problem at all, you're asking exactly the same questions I would in your position. I respect forthrightness and critical thinking.
To answer your questions... (please understand that it's long gone midnight here, so I'm not quite as clear minded as I'd like to be, I'll try and just stick to the points, as I really do need to sleep very soon)

Yes I'm very clear in my plan as I've been working on little besides it for quite some time now. But, I'm sure you can understand that when one is preparing something like this that there is a schedule that helps keep things running smoothly. It's not unlike cooking a surprise meal for friends, you'd not sit everyone at the table before you'd purchased the ingredients or cooked the meal, nor would you serve all the courses at once. So forgive my secretiveness, I'd really love to just spell it all out right now (I really would) but it wouldn't do any of us any favours - you'd all just hear an unpolished "plan" without the means to move forward with it. Essentially you'd be reading the menu two weeks before you get to eat.

I'm also reliant on a few external entities that require me to work with their schedule. I'm champing at the bit wanting to move forward, which is why I'm running this pre-promotion to gather interest. In keeping with the meal analogy, I'm laying the table in preparation for the meal.

I'm also making a video to explain the project clearly, the crew are booked for Monday and it will likely take at least a week of post production.

The point of asking people to sign up to the list is to do exactly what you're asking, I'll lay the entire plan out once it is ready to go live and when people can actually see a finished concept, and then you will all have the chance to make your own minds up. I'm sure some people will like it, others won't - but I'd prefer to present it in the best possible way I can, and that takes a bit of preparation.

I'm certainly not asking anyone to trust me, nor (god forbid) assume I have any status with which to impress. I'm a passionate lucid dreamer just like you, and consider myself no more. I'm just saying "hey, I've got something interesting lined up, can't share it yet because I still need to do some work, but if you want to be the first to know about it, here's a way to find out".

The simple truth is, I could tell you exactly what the plan is right now - but we'd all still have to wait two to three weeks before anything could be done about it. The alternative was that I didn't mention anything until everything was ready, but then, I'd be playing catch up with trying to get peoples attention. It seems to me that the best option is to always do a task earlier rather than later if it's possible - this way I'll have more time to invest elsewhere when things are live.

You've made perfectly good points and I absolutely take no offence whatsoever, I hope this goes some way to answering why I'm doing things the way I am - and the apparent secrecy. I know it's frustrating and I can understand why your cynicism would kick in, I'd be the same in your shoes. However, I'd just ask you to understand that the creation of anything requires a lot of work and planning.

I'm a perfectionist and lucid dreaming is my life's passion. I want to do this to the best of my abilities and that, unfortunately, is going to take just a little more time. I certainly appreciate everyone's patience and understanding.

Originally Posted by DanielLove

I'd really love to just spell it all out right now (I really would) but it wouldn't do any of us any favours - you'd all just hear an unpolished "plan" without the means to move forward with it.

In my opinion, this would do us favors. We would benefit from knowing what was going on, and you would benefit from the trust, feedback, and interest gained from the disclosure.

Originally Posted by DanielLove

The simple truth is, I could tell you exactly what the plan is right now - but we'd all still have to wait two to three weeks before anything could be done about it.

I don't think we would mind waiting a few weeks if we knew what the plan was and knew it was a work in progress. If the project is interesting, then our interest would not go down in a few weeks time.

Thank you for your open response. I never did question your motives, especially not knowing your well-written book!
Like you put it, as LD-ing is getting more mainstream, nowadays there are so many "magic pill/machine/course" products, that are either useless/unfinished or expensive or both, and many self-proclaimed instructors repeat the same old stuff again and again on youtube trying to sell to an audience of people who want to consume LD as just another form of entertainment. So more than ever I'm hoping for a real effort to try some new aproaches and explore new possibilities.
I myself value LD as a mental and spiritual practice I'm following for many years. If there is anything I can contribute, I'm glad and honored to be a "soldier" in your "army"...

I agree completely Raipat,

Certainly there is a danger that as lucid dreaming becomes mainstream that it risks being swallowed by a fast-food style mentality - making it essentially insubstantial, unsatisfying and lacking its true potential. This is actually a part of what I aim to address, as lucid dreaming is such a valuable skill, with potentials that remain, still, very much untapped. Like you, I see it as an aspect of our universe that should be approached with the awe and respect it deserves. When I look into the constellations of my dreams, I am filled with the same sense of wonder that the stars in a clear night sky would instil. At the same time, realism and honesty are vital components that are often lacking from much of the material on the subject (hype seems far more popular)- again, this is something I'd like to continue to address.

Basically, we're all adventurers in a very exciting and mysterious universe. If nothing else, it's that passion for dreams, life and everything in between that I want to share.

I'd certainly value your help in any way. Thank you!

I won't sign up, but I just want to say I'm looking forward to your work. I'm curious Good luck to you and to everyone who's signing up!

Sign-up page not working ATM? Seems frozen and/or non responsive.

Originally Posted by DoubleHelix

Sign-up page not working ATM? Seems frozen and/or non responsive.

How are you accessing it? Seems to be working at my end.
Maybe refresh the page or try a different browser?

If you can't get it to work, send me a private message with your email address and I can add you manually

Hey Dolphin,

You and Sageous have made some good points. I'd actually appreciate prior feedback from you all. Perhaps if Gab or a forum admin is able to create a non-public section of the forum, then I'd be able to share the full concept with you all and we could work together on a few of the details.

Like I've already said though, I'm still refining things and what you'll see will be unpolished. It will be lacking the video and a few key components that are quite vital. So, as you can imagine, in its current state I'd prefer not to be sharing it in a public forum - but I'm more than happy for the DreamViews community to help me polish things. I'm certainly not being secretive out of choice, I'd more than appreciate a little help. I'd just rather do things right, than be impatient and rush things.

I'll message Gab tomorrow and see if there's any way to do something like that.
It really will have to wait until tomorrow though as it's 2am here and I've got to be up at 7 - which I'm pretty sure isn't what the DreamViews "Staying up all night" catchphrase was meant to encapsulate.

For the time being, signing up will still guarantee those who are interested will be the first to know when everything is live and complete. So here's that link again: Sign up here

I found this out first from the lucid dreaming day facebook page, so already signed up .

I have been thinking how to make some kind of a private space. And I’m sorry to say that under these circumstances, I don’t think it can be done.

There is no way to make a single thread visible to only certain people (like registered members), or to password protect it. It would have to be the whole “General Lucid Dreaming” forum. But I’m sure you will all agree that would not be a right thing to do.


Guys, I understand your concerns. We had our share of newbie “researchers” that come to pick our brains but they don’t offer anything in return. All we ask from them in return is to post results from the study on the forum, so all our members can benefit. And to mention Dreamviews as a resource, which I think it’s only fair to you all. But most of those posts you guys don’t even get to see, because they are filtered out after unsuccessful requests for cooperation.

Well, Daniel Love joined in 2014 and he promoted DreamViews in his book “Are you Dreaming?” and placed a link to DreamViews on his Lucid Dreaming Day website. All without being asked to and without receiving any favors from us.

I personally trust that this project will be exciting. Maybe we even help with some breakthrough, or with wider acceptance of LDs and dreams in general. Isn’t that what we all want, why we are all here? Isn’t that why we post our experiences and ask questions? To learn, to teach, to get better at this wonderful thing called lucid dreaming.

Signing up only guarantees information when it becomes ready. After that we can decide if we want to participate, or not. I don’t see any harm in waiting few weeks to receive the info.

I dunno, it’s like Christmas. You know you will have presents under the tree. But do you really wanna know what they gonna be?

Originally Posted by gab

Guys, I understand your concerns. We had our share of newbie “researchers” that come to pick our brains but they don’t offer anything in return. All we ask from them in return is to post results from the study on the forum, so all our members can benefit. And to mention Dreamviews as a resource, which I think it’s only fair to you all. But most of those posts you guys don’t even get to see, because they are filtered out after unsuccessful requests for cooperation.

Well, Daniel Love joined in 2014 and he promoted DreamViews in his book “Are you Dreaming?” and placed a link to DreamViews on his Lucid Dreaming Day website. All without being asked to and without receiving any favors from us.

I personally trust that this project will be exciting. Maybe we even help with some breakthrough, or with wider acceptance of LDs and dreams in general. Isn’t that what we all want, why we are all here? Isn’t that why we post our experiences and ask questions? To learn, to teach, to get better at this wonderful thing called lucid dreaming.

Signing up only guarantees information when it becomes ready. After that we can decide if we want to participate, or not. I don’t see any harm in waiting few weeks to receive the info.

I dunno, it’s like Christmas. You know you will have presents under the tree. But do you really wanna know what they gonna be?

That's all well and good, Gab, and I do appreciate (even if I do not generally agree with) Mr Love's responses above... but it would still be nice to know for what war Mr. Love needs an army before I enlist.

There is a reason I am making this fuss, other than just to make a fuss. With no offense whatsoever to Mr. Love, who I am surely not placing in this category: Many very high profile gurus in the LD'ing community seem to lean more toward converting their status into personal profits rather than toward furthering the cause of lucid dreaming, and in the process are capitalizing directly on the goodwill and soft adoration of their fans to generate these profits... often leaving nothing to their generous supporters but empty pocketbooks and disappointment. I still think it would be nice if the soldiers enlisting in Mr. Love's army could at least be permitted a general idea of the nature of the battles they will be fighting before taking up arms (sorry, Mr. Love, you did pick the analogy! ). Requesting personal information (albeit info as innocuous as an email) and then promising to provide information in trade when it's ready sometime in the future really ought to be a warning signal to more people than just me.

And yes, if opening those presents on Christmas resulted in disappointment, some sort of loss, or commitment to a program that I would never have signed up for in the first place, I would definitely want to know what was in them ahead of time. Sometimes the wrapping is far more impressive than the gift.

Also, I hope that, since I've actively been with DV for 5 years and made what I assume are real contributions to it, you would give me the same leeway in presenting a similar bargain were I to come up with a project that required an army of uninformed soldiers... but in truth I would never do so. To me, holding back information that you already have in some form just to build a mailing list ahead of the project's initiation seems, well, not quite right... I would have the information ready before I asked people to join my army.

Sorry again for my skepticism, Gab; I'll stop now. One or two skeptical (or cynical) posts is plenty in this context; more is simply disrespectful. I do honestly wish you luck, Mr. Love, and hope that your project is a wonderful one that truly rewards your soldiers with a war of minimal casualties and a commensurate share of the dreaming spoils.

Ah Sageous, you're going to make me write a long rambling response again - you and I are cut from the same cloth and I've been in your position in forums many times in the past. I think we'd both enjoy a drink and horribly convoluted discussion about the universe - the kind that would make others want to bury themselves alive!

I'll start with the simple stuff, as for capitalizing on lucid dreaming - I certainly know that some of the self appointed "gurus" out there are quite willing to do or say anything to bump up their bank balance and make it all a bit of an ego trip for themselves. The reason I decided to put myself "out-there" in the first place was, to be frank, because it bothered me just as deeply as it does you. I wanted to get up in their faces and stop them from ruining a subject that I've loved as long as I can remember. I'd name names, but that would only stir things up - I'd rather fight them with quality and honesty. I think in the long run this is the approach which wins. I also never want to become a "guru", the thought bothers me deeply. I'm a human being like anyone else. We're all born with no idea why we're here, and we die probably with more questions than answers. The best I can offer is my passion and dedication to a subject, which hopefully gives me a little more insight than a layman - and ideally it is useful to others.

That said, I barely scrape by making a living as a writer and researcher. I'm not pushing for a sympathy vote at all, I'm just being honest. When I say lucid dreaming is my passion I mean it - I've adopted a very minimalistic lifestyle just so that I can survive doing what I love doing. I'd genuinely make more money flipping burgers. It's my choice though, and I love it and wouldn't change it for the world.

My sole aim in life is to leave something behind that has left the world somewhat wiser and hopefully a little improved. I don't care for money or possessions - if I won the lottery, I'd use it to invest in projects and my life would barely change (other than the huge relief of not having to be concerned about if I'll cover the next months rent).

With all that said, there is only so much you can achieve if you're focusing on survival. So of course my project is going to require funding to get off the ground. I'm not asking anyone here to agree to that, what I'm asking for is people to listen to what I'm going to offer, make their own minds up, and then if they like it either get on-board with it, or help spread the word. The latter is the most important actually.

I am going to be as blunt with you as you are with me, I think you're being a little too sensitive about me requesting an e-mail in order to let people know when something is launched. Most of us give our e-mails pretty readily - I expect my supermarket has mine. We basically have to do it for anything we wish to be involved with. There are strong anti-spam regulations and one of which requires me to share my home address with everyone who registers. So, I'm not asking for people to give me more than I'm willing to give in return. It's just the easiest means to share information directly. I trust that people won't abuse the information I share with them, and I'll certainly not abuse theirs.

As I've said I'm more than willing for feedback on the project and I'll drop into chat next week (if anyone is interested) so I can be more forthright about it all.

What I will say, is in it's simplest form going to be an ongoing resource and an ecosystem for lucid dreamers and those interested in our universe. It is also a means for me to create a self-fuelling system that will allow me to continue to invest time, energy and resources into expanding the subject. I have no intention of profiting, I do however need to survive in order to continue to invest all my time into doing this. I think that's fair and what is to be expected. With that in mind, the proof will be in the pudding - as the project itself will be launched as a crowd-funded campaign. So people can very easily decide if it's something they want in the world. So, this is why I am limited by time-scales and the need for a passionate group of lucid dreamers to help drive interest (if they like it) in the project.

If we really want lucid dreaming to develop, then it is important to have those who dedicate their lives to improving the subject - not those who abuse the subject to improve their lives.

I can understand that you fear I am the latter - but take a look at my history: I've released a book on the subject which I feel gives a balanced and honest introduction and I've instigated a worldwide celebration of lucid dreaming - which is funded out of my own pocket. But more importantly I have avoided advertising, selling endless junk e-books, useless on-line courses and I rarely if ever run workshops. I've also turned down numerous paying events that I felt were abusing the subject - why? Because I feel this is just people cashing in with regurgitated nonsense. I refuse to abuse my standards for profit. It would be SO easy to do, and I've had plenty of time in which I could have done this. But, I hate that kind of behaviour and I dearly wish to do my part to put and end to it and shame those who are involved in it.

Lucid dreaming deserves better. I'm only one person but I'll do what I can to make it so. I wholeheartedly support your approach in making me stand my ground - continue to do this, too many people in this field are in it because it can be a cash-cow and are rarely pulled up on it. I'm not offended that you feared that I was one of them (okay, I was a little, but mostly because I've spent so long being the one criticising them myself).

Hopefully you'll realise in this case that we're both on the same side and we both want to put an end to that nonsense once and for all.

I would sign up but I haven't had a LD in ages and I am struggling with induction xD Plus it's exam period so I doubt I'll have the time.

Thanks Daniel Yours was the first LD book I read and I loved it - nice that you will be around more at DV too possibly

I signed up