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    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

    1. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Jeez, Darkmatters, you're really going to test my brevity skills with these!
      Lol Brevity FAIL!!

      Just kidding - actually you kept your answers very compact and yet informative. Well done!

      So what you're describing for self-awareness (or awareness anyway) sounds like something between All Day Awareness and Puffin's Sporadic Awareness Technique. It sounds like this kind of vigilance produces a sort of lucidity in waking life that can carry over into dreaming. Alright, I'm convinced. I've been trying to maintain (or rather periodically re-attain) this type of awareness now since reading your post a few hours ago. In conjunction with this I plan to renew doing RCs and thinking about dream signs, and start journaling my dreams again (I've let it slide for a while now).

      I've also been coming to realize that I have certain doubts that are probably blocking me to a large extent - but I'll make a thread about that where hopefully I can lay those doubts to rest. Sorry, that has nothing to do with this thread.

      Oh, just thought of something I'd like to comment on -

      You say it's important to remember that your body is laying in bed sleeping.

      I've read several times in here that it's actually important not to think too much about your sleeping body because it can wake you up. (I THINK that's the risk anyway?) But maybe there's a difference between remembering that your body is sleeping in bed and concentrating on it too much? I think the danger might be that if you think about your sleeping body then when you move you might actually move a real limb and wake yourself up?
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 12-13-2011 at 10:59 PM.
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    2. #27
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      What a great thread. Your advice is very invigorating. It is such a simple concept, "Remember to be aware." Unfortunately, while they are fundamental ingredients to lucid dreaming, memory and awareness are two of the most difficult things to master. If only I could remember to remind myself that I am supposed to remember to be aware...

      Do you think actively pursuing lucid dreaming has permanently changed the way you dream? Have you noticed growth over the years? What do you think would happen if you stopped being an active participant in the process?

    3. #28
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      I'm probably going to send you an essay length PM with some questions haha, I get a little bit excited when I find someone who embodies what I wish to gain from lucid dreaming. Is that okay?
      Today I will be happier than a bird with a french fry

    4. #29
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      Please post your questions to him on the thread! The whole reason I asked him to do this is to share his knowledge with the rest of us - I could have just asked him privately and then nobody but me would have benefited - in which case you would never have even seen this thread! Now would that have been fair?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters;
      Oh, just thought of something I'd like to comment on -

      You say it's important to remember that your body is laying in bed sleeping.

      I've read several times in here that it's actually important not to think too much about your sleeping body because it can wake you up. (I THINK that's the risk anyway?) But maybe there's a difference between remembering that your body is sleeping in bed and concentrating on it too much? I think the danger might be that if you think about your sleeping body then when you move you might actually move a real limb and wake yourself up?
      I've read that myself. Sure, thinking about your sleeping body too much might wake you up. But then, thinking too much about your dog's overgrown toenails would do the same thing, as would thinking too much about what you're going to wear to school tomorrow...My point is that thinking too much about anything could cause you to wake up; moderation wins in LD'ing.

      So yes, thinking too much about your sleeping body might wake you, but simply holding the truth that you have a sleeping body right where you left it before you entered this dream world will do no harm at all, but will help your lucidity dramatically. No concentration or focus necessary -- just memory!
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-14-2011 at 05:09 AM.
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    6. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Please post your questions to him on the thread! The whole reason I asked him to do this is to share his knowledge with the rest of us - I could have just asked him privately and then nobody but me would have benefited - in which case you would never have even seen this thread! Now would that have been fair?
      Okay that is a very good point, it's going to take me some time to gather my thoughts in an orderly fasion (single file after me!) and it may be quite a lengthy post, but in this thread it shall go
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    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Robot_Butler View Post
      What a great thread. Your advice is very invigorating. It is such a simple concept, "Remember to be aware." Unfortunately, while they are fundamental ingredients to lucid dreaming, memory and awareness are two of the most difficult things to master. If only I could remember to remind myself that I am supposed to remember to be aware...
      ...I hear you!

      Do you think actively pursuing lucid dreaming has permanently changed the way you dream? Have you noticed growth over the years? What do you think would happen if you stopped being an active participant in the process?
      Yes, yes, and I would go right on LD'ing, whether I like it or not!

      Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure that all these years of LD'ing has changed my dreaming life -- though I could never prove it -- in a few ways.

      I've already mentioned that I haven't had a nightmare in decades, simply because I know to stop them when they start (or, sometimes, to enjoy the rush the given nightmare might offer without any fear, because I know it's a dream), and I also think that at this point I have -- with three glaring recurring exceptions -- a tiny bit of waking awareness in all of my dreams, like extremely low-level lucidity always waiting, but never asking, to be turned up. I think also that my LD'ing mileage has also "inspired" my dream characters (or whoever those folks may be) to do everything in their power to complicate my dreams and challenge my lucidity. I have a feeling there have been other effects, but either I don't know what they are or I can't remember them...

      And yes, I have a feeling that if I stopped trying at this point, that low-level lucidity would remain as residue for quite some time -- after all, you can't just erase decades of self-awareness development, right?
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-14-2011 at 05:33 AM.

    8. #33
      See beyond the surface Duncan's Avatar
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      Like riding a bike right? :p
      Today I will be happier than a bird with a french fry

    9. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
      Like riding a bike right? :p
      Yup!

    10. #35
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      yea I agree, the method doesn't matter, as long as I get a lot of lucid dreams, and they last a long time and are very vivid,I could care less what technique is used so long as they all reap the same results: wonders of LD'ing

      Oh one more thing, you talk about one of the keys to LD'ing being awareness, specifically self awareness. Like just knowing that you are here in this world and everything you do has an effect on things around you. I've got to ask, what would be your advice for people like me who have just started LD'ing months ago and just recently learned about things like awareness? To increase the quality and quantity of lucid dreams, how should one go forth pursuing this? Sounds like a bit of a broad question but what I'm pretty much asking is how do you go from very short, unclear and low quantity of lucid dreams, to having many vivid and wondrous lucid experiences using awareness? Are you talking in a similar vein to techniques like SAT (sporadic awareness) and ADA like darkmatters previously mentioned?

      Whenever I remember to, I usually question my waking reality, I look around at things, question whether I am dreaming, I question how I got to the location I am currently at, and where I plan to go, as well as my reason for being at said location. If I can give a clear conscise answer to every question, and do a RC that fails, I confirm that I am not dreaming. What more can I add to this technique?
      Last edited by lawilahd; 12-14-2011 at 08:31 AM.
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    11. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by lawilahd View Post
      Oh one more thing, you talk about one of the keys to LD'ing being awareness, specifically self awareness. Like just knowing that you are here in this world and everything you do has an effect on things around you. I've got to ask, what would be your advice for people like me who have just started LD'ing months ago and just recently learned about things like awareness? To increase the quality and quantity of lucid dreams, how should one go forth pursuing this? Sounds like a bit of a broad question but what I'm pretty much asking is how do you go from very short, unclear and low quantity of lucid dreams, to having many vivid and wondrous lucid experiences using awareness?
      Yep, that was a broad question, all right, and I have a broad answer for you: Yes, a high level of self-awareness should help you increase all levels of your LD's. This is true by definition since lucidity is actually just awareness that you are dreaming, so more awareness ought to mean more lucidity, right? Also, since the dreams are generated from your own mind, self-awareness should increase your ability to accept the nature of what's being created (that it's all yours), and from that you should have a greater ability to control the dream and perhaps tweak some real vividness or adventure from it. And yes, if your self-awareness (and memory -- don't forget memory!) is at a high level, you should find your quantity of LD's increasing to a point where you can LD pretty much whenever you really feel like it. Now for the part you don't want to hear (and I don't blame you):

      Are you talking in a similar vein to techniques like SAT (sporadic awareness) and ADA like darkmatters previously mentioned?
      Yup, Darkmatters pretty much pinned down what I said, if you're looking for a specific technique in my words. Trouble is, the technique does not matter. How you develop your self-awareness and memory is totally up to you -- pick someone else's technique or make up your own; it really doesn't matter. What does matter is doing the waking-life work. The work, simply, is building your self-awareness to a point where you consistently know that you're not the center of your universe, and that you are part of everything around you (I know... blah, blah, blah; but you get that part, I think), and developing a habit of consciously testing your short-term memory. These are both very simple to describe, but will involve sacrificing lots of waking-life time and gathering the real discipline necessary to fight the mechanisms Nature has spent eons installing into your psyche. This is not a "technique" you can memorize today and master tomorrow -- hell, I've been at this for decades, and am not even close to mastering it.

      Now the good news: it might take you a very long time -- years, perhaps -- to develop the awareness and memory skills needed for high-level lucid exploration. But keep in mind that achieving longer and more vivid LD's does not require high lucidity -- in fact, some of the most adventurous LD's I've had came with very little awareness and memory! If you take your waking-life work seriously, you should see some results relatively quickly. And here's where all those techniques come in handy -- DILD, for instance, relies heavily on memory and doing RC's, so if you build RC's into your memory exercises, DILD should work better for you fairly quickly. Also, all that stuff they tell you about expectations and setting intent before sleep work just fine in low-level LD's, and even slightly improved memory skills make these much more effective -- and might even improve the dream.

      Also, if you are working steadily on your awareness, you'll discover fairly quickly that, after becoming lucid, you'll have a deeper feeling that "all this" is from you, and this will help with control, vividness, and adventure.

      Broad enough for you? Sorry about that! The problem with these fundamentals is two-fold: First,in the end it all comes down to you, your personal strengths, and your personal desires; all the techniques in the world won't help if you're not interested in developing the fundamentals. Second, nothing wonderful is ever easy, and no great personal feat -- like LD'ing -- can be properly done without some real time and effort. If someone tells you otherwise, don't believe them.

      Whenever I remember to, I usually question my waking reality, I look around at things, question whether I am dreaming, I question how I got to the location I am currently at, and where I plan to go, as well as my reason for being at said location. If I can give a clear concise answer to every question, and do a RC that fails, I confirm that I am not dreaming. What more can I add to this technique?
      See, you're already on your way! Very cool! Though you're already doing plenty, I would add a couple of things to the routine:

      First, find a way to have the activity happen not "whenever [you] remember to." It would be better if you could have something remind you (like that alarm watch or rabbit's foot I mention above) to remember, rather than have to trust yourself to remember. This is because you will only remember when you're interested in remembering (you can't help that), so you might go for too long of a stretch between state tests (state tests are what you're doing here), and the reinforcement value is diminished. Because you will react differently when reminded randomly, this different reaction might include more interest in paying real attention to what you are doing.

      Next, I suggest you add a couple of questions to ask yourself: Don't just ask where you've been and where you're going, but ask yourself why you're going there, or why you left. I know this sounds similar to "my reason for being at said location," but it really is something different. Maybe also ask yourself what effect you're having on the space around you, right now, and what effect that space is having on you -- this might sound silly, but if you think hard, you will find some effect in both directions every time. What I would not do, though, is ask all these questions every time -- at least not at first (later, with practice, you might find yourself able to ask all of it, and more, without even using words -- another very cool thing in itself). Too many questions will lead to memorizing the answers and doing everything by rote to avoid confusion, and you don't want to go there. Change the questions up instead; ask one or two one time, a couple of others another. And if you think of other questions that mean something to you specially, ask those too.

      Another thing I would suggest is adding a specific memory test. I know you're asking where you've been, and that's good, but it's also more a question of geography than memory. Try asking yourself what you were doing and thinking exactly fifteen minutes ago. Also, I would include this one question in all your state tests.

      One final thing about doing RC's -- never question reality; everything is real, even in dreams(especially when you're not lucid). Ask instead whether this thing you are in is a dream, and then do the RC to confirm. This might sound minor, but it too makes a difference.

      And note that I managed to get through this whole post without ever once telling you to be patient, and that it will come eventually!

      Good luck with your work, lawilahd. I can see you're already well on your way, so maybe luck won't matter...
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-14-2011 at 06:42 PM.

    12. #37
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      This all has been great! I am going to try and start that self-awareness discipline as soon as possible. I have a question, have you ever woken up in SP or during it experience Old Hag or shadows? I think this is one of my mental blocks for lucid dreams. I know it sounds really weird but I am paranoid about those kind of things. Also do you think diet helps with lucidity in dreams or at least vividness?

      Also I never experienced those things above but still.
      Lucid dreaming takes three things: Patience, practice, and perseverance.

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    13. #38
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      Wow tons of great info. thank you for taking the time!

      I apologize if you have answered this already (I did not see it above) but my main issue right now is stabilizing my LD's. I have LD'd a few times in my life but since finding this site and using the techniques described I LD nearly every night. I have read alot about stabilizing and I study my hands very closely, I say "stabilize lucidity" and "anchored in lucidity",move very slowly and touch everything I can but my LD's are fairly short, maybe a minute or two. I have been avoiding flying, teleporting, and summoning lately in hopes to just have a longer more stable LD. Frankly, if I could have a 30 minute dream where I was just walking around slowly I would be happy. My feeling is that I need to train to stabilize before anything else really matters even though I have flown, teleported to the Chichen Itza, etc.

      What do you recommend for a newer LD'er in the ways of LD stabilizing?

      Thanks in advance!
      James
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    14. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by pepsibluefan View Post
      This all has been great! I am going to try and start that self-awareness discipline as soon as possible. I have a question, have you ever woken up in SP or during it experience Old Hag or shadows? I think this is one of my mental blocks for lucid dreams. I know it sounds really weird but I am paranoid about those kind of things. Also do you think diet helps with lucidity in dreams or at least vividness? Also I never experienced those things above but still.
      Yup, it sounds really weird! Just kidding -- how can anything in dreams actually be considered weird? I've woken up in SP many, many times, but I never gave it much thought, knowing that SP is just a condition of my sleeping body and nothing special otherwise. Sorry; you'll never get any "wisdom" out of me about SP because it is really not a significant part of the LD experience.

      That said, I've often experienced shadows during SP, but no Old Hags... I feel like I'm missing out on something now! The shadows were less a threat to me than an obstacle, and a little focus and "remembering" quickly got me past them. You should try not to be too paranoid, since in the end it all comes from your dreaming mind, and do you really think your own mind is out to get you? Oh, and if you do work on your self-awareness, you might find some of your paranoia falling by the wayside (of course, it'll never all go away!), and that block could just get lifted!

      I don't have enough expertise to talk about diet, but I can tell you that my sister-in-law used to make a lasagna that sent my dreams straight to Disneyland every time. Aside from "heavy dosing" of supplements like B-6 or gallantamine, though, I have a feeling that you can pretty much eat what you want without really effecting dreams. I do suggest that you stay away from booze and hard drugs, though, because they only throw wrenches into the works.
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-14-2011 at 11:48 PM.
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    15. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by dianhsuhe View Post
      Wow tons of great info. thank you for taking the time!

      I apologize if you have answered this already (I did not see it above) but my main issue right now is stabilizing my LD's. I have LD'd a few times in my life but since finding this site and using the techniques described I LD nearly every night. I have read alot about stabilizing and I study my hands very closely, I say "stabilize lucidity" and "anchored in lucidity",move very slowly and touch everything I can but my LD's are fairly short, maybe a minute or two. I have been avoiding flying, teleporting, and summoning lately in hopes to just have a longer more stable LD. Frankly, if I could have a 30 minute dream where I was just walking around slowly I would be happy. My feeling is that I need to train to stabilize before anything else really matters even though I have flown, teleported to the Chichen Itza, etc.

      What do you recommend for a newer LD'er in the ways of LD stabilizing?

      Thanks in advance!
      James
      I haven't spoken directly about stabilizing because I am sure that strong self-awareness and memory skills will make stabilization an afterthought. In the meantime, though, I do have one odd suggestion...

      Instead of avoiding flying, teleporting, and summoning, why not try to do them instead? The effort you make to get these things to happen might take your mind off a struggle to stabilize and at the same time you'll be doing the things you really want to do. Sometimes thinking too much about a thing -- like stabilization -- will guarantee that it never happens. Sometimes "just walking around" is by far the hardest thing to do in a dream.

      So I guess from this post you've sensed my general opinion of all these stabilization "techniques." Sure they might work, but do they work because you're rubbing your hands or spinning, or is it because your awareness and memory are strong enough to create an expectation of stabilization that must be adhered to because it was your expectation? I have a feeling it's the latter. So then if you care a little less about losing lucidity, and more about enjoying it, you might find your LD's both lasting longer and including the stuff you want then to include...
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-15-2011 at 12:39 AM.

    16. #41
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      Awesome thanks! I had thought that flying and teleporting could unstabilize the LD but saying "stabilize lucidity!" has not worked much better- lol

      I will try to be more aware and see what happens!

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      Quote Originally Posted by dianhsuhe View Post
      Awesome thanks! I had thought that flying and teleporting could unstabilize the LD but saying "stabilize lucidity!" has not worked much better- lol

      I will try to be more aware and see what happens!
      Happy to help; good luck!

      And remember: if you think something will destabilize your dream, it most likely will...

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      then if you care a little less about losing lucidity, and more about enjoying it, you might find your LD's both lasting longer and including the stuff you want then to include...
      Wow I just confirmed that with myself lol. Many people say that it's very normal that your first lucids end within the first 5 seconds. But my first lucid I was so engaged into the experience that I didn't even remember of stabilizing or wondering if something would work. I even closed my eyes (was trying to teleport) and the dream didn't end. Funny seems most of the mental obstacles are just silly thoughts we have like "maybe it won't work" or "wonder if I can do it". Personally I believe that's why when random ordinary people have a lucid dream it usually is a very vivid experience: since they don't even know they are in a lucid dream, they don't worry about stabilizing the dream or that kind of stuff!

      About memory, I would like to post here this video about the famous mnemonic of places:



      Did you apply this (or other) memory technique in order to improve lucidity in any way?
      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
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    19. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      Wow I just confirmed that with myself lol. Many people say that it's very normal that your first lucids end within the first 5 seconds. But my first lucid I was so engaged into the experience that I didn't even remember of stabilizing or wondering if something would work. I even closed my eyes (was trying to teleport) and the dream didn't end. Funny seems most of the mental obstacles are just silly thoughts we have like "maybe it won't work" or "wonder if I can do it". Personally I believe that's why when random ordinary people have a lucid dream it usually is a very vivid experience: since they don't even know they are in a lucid dream, they don't worry about stabilizing the dream or that kind of stuff!
      So true. I often wish while reading many posts here that people would be required to have that initial LD, plus one more brought on by their own independent efforts, before being allowed to look at this site (or talk to their friends about LD'ing).

      I know that's impossible, and truly undesirable to those who've never had an LD but want one because of what they've heard about them. But it would help people new to the art to understand that it's the dream -- and the desire/intent to be lucid within it -- that matters, and not the technique used to get there. So much time seems spent prioritizing technique here -- especially WILD, which as I've said before is hands-down the most difficult to use -- that I worry that newbies are thinking that the technique is the goal, rather than the dream; that if they just master WILDing, then the LD's will begin to pour in. That, sadly, is not true -- if you are not mentally prepared to be in a LD, you can be the best WILDer in the world and still only have five minute LD's, if any. And of course, the only prep necessary are those fundamentals, mixed with clear intent and expectation before sleep. What is equally sad is that, even once lucid, people caught up in the "techniques" may tend to forget while spinning or rubbing or whatever that they are in a wonderful, fantastic place, and prolonging often comes simply by enjoying -- rather than worrying about -- the moment. At least, that is what I think!

      About memory, I would like to post here this video about the famous mnemonic of places:

      Did you apply this (or other) memory technique in order to improve lucidity in any way?
      I wish. I think Mr. Bell is a little confused when he says he is no different than anyone else -- sort of like a billionaire saying money doesn't matter. I actually once tried adopting a version of Da Vinci's Memory Cathedral, which is essentially the same idea (by another uniquely equipped thinker), and couldn't get past the first step. I don't think my brain is wired for this, and must make do with what I have (or lack, I suppose). So I'm stuck just remembering as best I can, which tends to be in manner that runs at polar opposites to Bell's -- I try to carry whole ideas or images into the dream, and then reduce them to bits I can handle to become and remain aware. This works nicely for lucidity,especially strong lucidity, where the "big" ideas don't need reduction, but wouldn't help much to remember playing card positions or that "that DC over there was a guy I met on a train Tuesday, so this must be a dream". So yes, if I could remember like Mr. Bell I definitely would, because his method seems near perfect for finding reminders in a dream that "this is a dream." Learn it if you can...
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-15-2011 at 06:28 PM.
      Dark_Merlin and tsa like this.

    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      So true. I often wish while reading many posts here that people would be required to have that initial LD, plus one more brought on by their own independent efforts, before being allowed to look at this site (or talk to their friends about LD'ing).

      I know that's impossible, and truly undesirable to those who've never had an LD but want one because of what they've heard about them. But it would help people new to the art to understand that it's the dream -- and the desire/intent to be lucid within it -- that matters, and not the technique used to get there. So much time seems spent prioritizing technique here -- especially WILD, which as I've said before is hands-down the most difficult to use -- that I worry that newbies are thinking that the technique is the goal, rather than the dream; that if they just master WILDing, then the LD's will begin to pour in. That, sadly, is not true -- if you are not mentally prepared to be in a LD, you can be the best WILDer in the world and still only have five minute LD's, if any. And of course, the only prep necessary are those fundamentals, mixed with clear intent and expectation before sleep. What is equally sad is that, even once lucid, people caught up in the "techniques" may tend to forget while spinning or rubbing or whatever that they are in a wonderful, fantastic place, and prolonging often comes simply by enjoying -- rather than worrying about -- the moment. At least, that is what I think!
      Thank you! I'm so glad other people hold this view; that lucid dreamers (and unfortunately particularly those with little experience) become so hung up on technique, 'what number of reality checks in a day coupled with hypnosis, subliminal messages, binaural beats, ad nauseum, will make me lucid', that they distort the whole principle of lucid dreaming into some complex formula and never see success because they have no faith in their own ability. Lucid dreaming is an art, not a science; no technique is truly reliable, because there's no method in which 'x' input produces 'y' output every time, so much depends on the individual.
      What truly frustrates me is to see threads made by people with no lucid dreams about a genuine problem only to have replies from about five or six people who also have no lucid dreams, who unwittingly pass on second-hand misinformation, and so false ideas spread. But I'm ranting now. I just think there's a strong element to forums that isn't conductive to the success of the individual.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
      Intent in Lucid Dreaming; Break that Dry-Spell, Escape the Technique Rut

      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


    21. #46
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      Find this thread a great idea, people have been bringing good themes for the conversation and sageous is giving detailed and valuable insight ^^

      Sageous, refering to the Dream journal:

      We know that is a crucial tool for any Lder, especially in the first "steps" of recall and dream signs. But we have several examples of people with experience in lding that say they usually don't record them. For one side, they are right when they say that the importance is (the act of) recalling them, but for other hand, aren't they missing possible new dream signs?
      Due your Ld count, I wonder if you haven't grown bored of recording every single dream, which might become extremely lengthy if you can recall them with long durations. How do you work atm with your dream journal, do you use is as a casual tool to record a "special" dream, or you still consider it necessary in your hunt for new (or unnoticed) dreamsigns? Do you rely in particular ones, or your self-awareness dictates that the constant questioning about your surroundings makes specific focus on certain elements counter-productive?
      Last edited by zoth00; 12-16-2011 at 02:35 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
      MMR (Mental Map Recall)- A whole new way of Recalling and Journaling your dreams
      Trying out MILD? This is how you become skilled at it.

    22. #47
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      Interesting video. From the card bit, I am inclined to agree that even though he seems normal, it's more like a Rain Man type talent. The second half where he shows the other guy how to memorise things should work though. I've noticed this myself when I go for a walk listening to an audiobook and then I do the same walk (without listening to anything) another day even months later and I remember exactly what was happening in the book at certain places on my walk.
      I wonder though, is this the same kind of memory we want to train for lucid dreaming? For instance memorising the cards seems like a very specific association game. I guess all kinds of memory tools are what we want though.

    23. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      Find this thread a great idea, people have been bringing good themes for the conversation and sageous is giving detailed and valuable insight ^^

      Sageous, refering to the Dream journal:

      We know that is a crucial tool for any Lder, especially in the first "steps" of recall and dream signs. But we have several examples of people with experience in lding that say they usually don't record them. For one side, they are right when they say that the importance is (the act of) recalling them, but for other hand, aren't they missing possible new dream signs?
      Due your Ld count, I wonder if you haven't grown bored of recording every single dream, which might become extremely lengthy if you can recall them with long durations. How do you work atm with your dream journal, do you use is as a casual tool to record a "special" dream, or you still consider it necessary in your hunt for new (or unnoticed) dreamsigns? Do you rely in particular ones, or your self-awareness dictates that the constant questioning about your surroundings makes specific focus on certain elements counter-productive?
      I'd say you have me pegged here, Zoth00! Though I too hold the value of dream journals at a very high level, I don't record many dreams anymore. Generally the only dreams I record now are "full-on" LD's that I feel may be significant to whatever I'm currently working on. This is probably a mistake, because to this day I enjoy -- and often learn something from -- browsing the stack of DJ books I filled over the years. Now in the future I won't have as much to look at, and what's missing could turn out to be something significant when I have the advantage of looking back. But I'm lazy, disinterested in finding meaning in my dreams, and yes, dream signs are unimportant to me (more in a minute). So yes, you are right: if I need to spend an hour or two recording a low-level LD I usually will choose not to do so -- I'd rather spend that time doing other things these days. I also do so with the knowledge that that unrecorded non-LD's will be gone forever (ironically, full-on LD's go straight into my long-term memory, and don't even need to be recorded -- go figure). I think it's not so much that I'm bored as in a rush to do other things. All of this is of course just empty rationale for avoiding an important part of the dreaming experience, I suppose. So yes, keeping a dream journal is important, so ignore my example and keep up the recording!

      Now directly to your thoughts: First, keep in mind that writing down a dream right after having it is categorically the best way to remember it, because the physical act of recording it helps push it into long-term memory. So if anyone is telling you that they are actively "recalling" them without recording them, they are either masters of remembering, lying, or kidding themselves...or making excuses for their obvious laziness (like me!). Also, if remembering your dreams are important, then definitely write them down just for the sake of accuracy; it's amazing how much information a person can "fill in" over time as he recalls an old dream. I've done the following myself, many times: I would be reading an old, "well remembered" dream in my DJ, and discover that much of what I "remember" never happened in the original dream... a DJ forms an excellent base for keeping your memory honest.

      Regarding dream signs: I can't really speak to these for myself, because dream signs have never been a part of my dreaming experience. This is because, with 3 occasional exceptions (return to school, return to work, return to my grandfather's house, all of which remain consistently, frustratingly, non-lucid, every time), my dreams do not recur, so dream signs are fairly useless to me; they always were. That said, I do understand their import to people whose dream schema do repeat, so yes, keeping a DJ would make a lot of sense in their cases -- and if I could rely on dream signs to become lucid, I would likely be keeping closer tabs on my dreams. In other words, if your dream signs matter, it would be foolish to not keep a DJ.

      Now that I think about it, not only do I not use dream signs (though I would if I could!), I also have stopped looking for the "odd," which is another very handy tool for confirming that you're dreaming. I guess I have come to rely on my self-awareness, with a kick from pre-dreaming expectation + memory. And yes, that formula would dictate that "constant questioning about [my] surroundings makes specific focus on certain elements counter-productive." I could not have said it better myself. In fact, memorizing dream signs and doing RC's by rote (aka, simply doing the same check every time without thinking about what you're doing, or why) could very like be counter-productive, for two reasons: First, like any of those techniques out there, over-use of them will lead the dreamer to wasting precious awareness on panic-ridden searches for signs or RC confirmations, followed by loss of lucidity or, more likely, waking up; and second, if you are too heavily focused on specific dream signs, you can be assured that your dreaming mind will obligingly present you with a non-LD filled with all those signs, and you will "dream" that you are lucid without an ounce of waking awareness actually present (aka, false lucid).

      So bottom line: DJ's are indeed crucial, and all LD'ers should keep them studiously; not only for dream signs but as a real record of your dreams, your adventures, and your progress. So don't be a lazy excuse-maker like me!
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-16-2011 at 09:40 PM.

    24. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by FancyRat View Post
      I wonder though, is this the same kind of memory we want to train for lucid dreaming? For instance memorising the cards seems like a very specific association game. I guess all kinds of memory tools are what we want though.
      You make a good point here. To me it makes more sense to remember big, single things (like that my real body is still asleep in bed, right where I left it, or perhaps what my dream goal tonight might be) than specific details. After all, even if you have the best mental machine in place for following the path to a specific detail, what if that detail -- or the path to it -- never shows up in your dream?

      The only exception to this is that a person working Bell's card technique (or Da Vinci's Memory Cathedral) might have a tendency to activate his brain's memory function during the dream, if he is making this kind of disciplined effort to remember something -- that's a good thing, no matter how it happens.
      FancyRat likes this.

    25. #50
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      Before you knew that you where lucid dreaming, did you find your ability to control your dreams frightening?
      You say that you should think about and be aware of your sleeping body. When thinking about it, are you at all worried about the fact that it is totally unprotected and there is nothing you can do about it? If so, how do you stop yourself from worrying about that?
      Thanks for a great thread and all the interesting answers!

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